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Author Topic: Who makes "rock and roll" projectors? Matt Hale Expert Film Handler Posts: 123 From: Vancouver, Canada Registered: Dec 2002 posted 06-02-2003 06:17 PM                        We are beginning to be in the market for a "rock and roll" style reversing/high speed projector for our new mixing stage. I am aware (mostly by reading old threads on this board) of Kinotons, Sondors, and Magna-Techs. Are there any other makes I should be checking out? Anyone here have experience running/servicing these things? I know the units that have electronic movements can be quite a different beast... Are such machines available second-hand? We'd rather not spend $70k if we dont have to, its not going to be used that much. Our previous facility had oridinary Simplex XLs fitted with biphase motors, but it would be nice to be able to wind back and watch a scene again. Thanks  |  IP: Logged German Marin Expert Film Handler Posts: 227 From: Verbania (VB), Italy Registered: Jul 2001 posted 06-02-2003 06:41 PM                     Prevost has made a system called "retromarcia accellerata" (high speed reverse) using two projectors with 6000' reels and non operator, it is remote operated and not electronic. Also, It has an automatic framing and focus (remotly). If can go to the Prevost site.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-02-2003 06:42 PM                     Simplexs are not that great for rock and roll The best is the Kinoton or the magnatech the magnatech doesn't have the steadiest image so most facilities install a fp20 for finished screenings useing the rock and roll machine for the dubbing Also Peerfectone and Nova make high speed machines  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 06-02-2003 07:02 PM                        Some links: http://www.kinotonamerica.com/fp30ec.htm http://www.colorlab.com/kinoton.html (AFAIK, Steve Guttag did this install) http://www.warwicksound.com/sale.htm http://www.sondor.ch/news.html  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-02-2003 07:37 PM                     We used a few Simplex XL's that could rock-n-roll in few of the screening rooms that I worked in Hollywood (Paramount the smaller rooms had XL's, the big rooms on the lot had DP70's, Digital Domain and afew of the BelAir houses had RnR XL's . The projectors that I use now are the MagnaTech PR 135, which are the Kinoton FP20. They run very well Some of the main dubbing studios in this building also use the MagnaTech machines.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-02-2003 07:49 PM                        Arri (the camera company) makes something that uses a rotating prism (like a Steembeck editing table) rather than a conventional shutter/intermittent. I have no idea if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look, anyway: http://www.arri.com/prod/project/index2.htm  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-02-2003 09:06 PM                     Nothing really comes close to the Kinoton FP 30/38EC II. It moves...300fps in either direction and is fully programmable and remotable. I have some extensive experience with their lesser machine in the studio line...the FP-38E-S...it is not in the same league as the ECII but still is capable of reverse projection and shuttling. Please also note that the FP-30E-R also exists and will allow you to project forward and shuttle in reverse (up to 100 fps). However, that said, the FP-30ECII really is in a class by itself. If you really want a studio projector that will even project a still frame, the ECII is your projector. Kinoton also just has brought out the FP-30/38 EQ line of projectors...they are kinda a half-way house between the E-S series and the ECII series. I consider the E-S really to be a cinema projector that has studio features. The EQ is more of a lab-review projector since it allows super slow projection as well as shuttle and the ECII is the studio projector that has all of the bells and whistles. I'd suspect it is the most approriate projector for you if you want to set up to see a sequence over and over or want a projector that will track time-code. Steve  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 06-02-2003 09:35 PM                     The Arriflex unit is very convenient but the image quality I feel is not up to par based on a couple of situations with the unit. The Prevost unit is more for conventional cinema two machine use where the off line projector is reversing at a 50% higher reverse rate through the intermittent while the other machine is on the screen.......at least with Kinoton you have a choice of good, better, best ...and Herr Guttag did a great pitch. Richard Fowler Kinoton America Inc.  |  IP: Logged Matt Hale Expert Film Handler Posts: 123 From: Vancouver, Canada Registered: Dec 2002 posted 06-02-2003 10:59 PM                        Yes, we have been drooling over the kinoton fp30-ecII for quite a while now, and if money were no object I would not hesitate to order one tomorrow. Unfortuneately, film is going to be our secondary picture format behind dlp. I know, I know, there is no substitute for mixing to an actual print, both in terms of sync assurances and picture quality, but once your clients have been to a mix with instant-cueing picture even shuttling back and forth at 300fps seems slow. That is why we had the split system at our previous location. The mix would be done to picture on a digital video server, then when everything was done I'd thread up a reel and we would watch it just to be sure. The difference in picture quality really was astounding when you put one right after the other like that, but I digress... The single most annoying part of that system was that there was no way to stop mid-reel, go back and check something, and then continue. If you lost concentration or wanted to see something again, you had to wait for the rest of the reel to play, shut down, rewind, re-thread and wait for it to come around again. Threading up half way through a reel was not an option because the only sync reference we had was the 2-pop at the head of the reel. Quite a pain in the butt. My only concern with an electronic-drive projector (besides cost) is image stability, because we also hope to use the theatre for trade screenings, dailies, and such. I understand the kinotons are the equal of a mechanical projector in this respect, but I tend to wonder about some of the other machines, especially the Sondor which seem to use the same prism thing (I dont quite understand how that works) as the Arri unit. btw is Sondor the same as Nova? I seem to remeber someone here saying they were RnRing with a pair of E-7s, which have a very steady image and are cheap! Thanks  |  IP: Logged Howard Johnson Film Handler Posts: 87 From: Felpham , West Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-03-2003 04:58 AM                     How about a FEDI ? There was one installed at Twickenham Studios in the main dubbing theatre and it worked very well , after you had laced up the picture reel and the sound reels on the playback units you could sit down and read the paper while the dubbing mixer ran the reel backwards and forwards to his heart's content! This was made in Milan I think, I don't know if they are still in business . I don't know if any found their way across the Atlantic.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-03-2003 08:49 AM                     Actually, the Kinoton E series of projectors have a steadier image than most mechanicals and is tunable, via a laptop. All of the studio projectors provide a pulse/tach output to drive external (dubbers and the like) devices...even the E-S series. However...when you move into the ECII...it can also be a slave to other devices and chase time-code. If all you want/need to do is stop, back up, then run a sequence again, perhaps something closer to the E-S projector may suffice. I'd give all of the models in the studio line (and even the E-R projector of the cinema line) a look-see. Steve  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 06-03-2003 10:38 AM                     Steve wrote: quote: Nothing really comes close to the Kinoton FP 30/38EC II. Just as a matter of interest, what do those things cost? You'd better let me sit down before you answer that question!  |  IP: Logged Matt Hale Expert Film Handler Posts: 123 From: Vancouver, Canada Registered: Dec 2002 posted 06-03-2003 11:21 AM                        I have been told to expect to pay around US$70,000 for the top-end kinoton. Please correct me if I'm wrong.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-03-2003 12:49 PM                     The price varies...one has to select what features they want. It is not as simple as saying "let me have one of those." With all of the bells and wistles...I can see it getting up and over the $70K mark...but then again, I could also see it being less than $70K with a lamphouse (High 50,000s low 60,000s). Again, with this sort of machine...one really can't price it without knowing just what it needs to do. It isn't like the run of the mill movie theatre projector that basically comes in one flavor and the biggest question is turrets or single lens. Steve  |  IP: Logged Larry Shaw Expert Film Handler Posts: 238 From: Boston, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 06-04-2003 02:57 PM                        I might add that both the ECII and EQ have Sony 9-pin control interfaces with multiple settings in software so they will easily follow and chase-to-match most anything. The ECII also has a front panel switch to change between 4- and 3-perf pulldown. Lately 3-perf is getting quite popular. Also, anyone who needs this sort of machine to be operational 24/365 should think very carefully about parts and tech support. KA keeps a large supply of EC parts, and has techs, on each US coast. I've heard some tales that suggest others may not. Steve is correct about the pricing (High 50,000s low 60,000s) for a "well equipped" (but not with every single option) ECII.  |  IP: Logged

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