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Author
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Topic: "Battling Loud Trailers" with CNA-150 and CP-500
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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-28-2002 07:25 PM
I'd like to set up the remote fader to control the volume of trailers as stated in the "Battling Loud Trailers" page in the Tips section. Under Notes, the article says, "Your automation MUST be configured in a way that will allow a momentary pulse to switch the processor INTO remote status at the douser open and OUT of remote status on a cue." I am not aware of such a feature on the CNA-150. Anyone know if it can be done?
If it can be done, I would also like the trailers to play in SR, which the article says will happen. With Auto Digital enabled, SRD will kick in as soon as a valid SRD track is detected. If I disable Auto Digital and there is a dropout during the feature, will the sound switch back to digital? (In other words, even if Auto Digital is dissabled, if the sound is already in digital but drops out due to error, will it ever come back to digital? This as opposed to starting in SR but switching to digital the first time it sees digital data.)
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-28-2002 09:01 PM
What firmware revision do you have on the CP500?
Can the CNA-150 select multiple formats on the CP500? If so, you don't need the remote fader trick with the CP500.
If, for example, the CNA-150 is set up to select the upper-left (SK1) format at show start and can select another format (say, the SK2 format) when it senses a cue, you should be all set. Just set up a custom format screen with SK1 being the format assigned to whatever format you want to play trailers in; I do this with a user-defined format called "user 5" (could be any of the "user" formats, but I like "user 5" because it implies derivation from Dolby format 05) which I like to set up as a copy of format 05 (SR), but with optical bass extension (subwoofer) disabled. Assign a fader setting (I use 4.5) to this format. Make sure it is _not_ an auto-digital "source."
Then, assign SK2 to be the format for the feature. In most cases, this should be format 05 (Dolby SR), but can be changed if you happen to get a mono or Dolby A feature. Make this format an auto-digital "source" and assign it a fader setting of 7.0. Enable auto-digital for projector 1 (or both projectors if c/o). Make sure that format 10 is assigned to one of the soft keys (doesn't matter which) and is configured as an auto-digital "target." Assign it a fader setting of 7.0.
Leave non-sync alone, of course, though you might want to assign it a fader setting.
Now, you should be all set. Just add the sound cue (to put processor into the SK2 format) at feature start. The processor will then start in the "user 5" format at a fader setting of 4.5 and then will switch to SR with auto-digital at a fader setting of 7.0 for the feature.
This works with firmware v.1.61. Some old firmware versions don't have the auto-digital functionality, and 1.61 seems to have "issues" with having multiple instances of format 05 listed in the format screen (that's one reason for for creating a custom format instead).
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2002 09:51 PM
Ken, what Scott said, but I'll try and word it differently in case you had trouble following his wording.
First disable all "auto dolby digital" source and targets. (Not to worry, things will work properly with fallback if needed.)
Second, create a User1 format by copying SR. At this point you can delete the subwoofer and surrounds if you like (I do this).
Third, set up a custom screen and assign User1 to whatever softkey your CNA150 is set up to pulse at the douser open (mono, stereo, whatever).
Fourth, assign fader levels. You want to set User1 to whatever volume you want your trailers to play at (say 4.0 to start with). Next assign Dolby Digital to 7.0 (assuming that is the level you play your features at). It is very important you do NOT assign any fader setting to SR. This way should the digital drop out, the CP500 will revert to SR at whatever fader setting your digital was playing at. If you need to, go ahead and give your non-sync it's own setting as well.
That's it. Nothing needs to be done on the CNA-150.
If you are not 100% clear on this let me know, as I will be near a CP500 tomorrow and will give step-by-step instructions on which button to press in which order for you then.
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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-28-2002 10:17 PM
Brad and Scott,
From what I'm reading, it sounds as if the automation simply tells the processor which softkey to choose? I just thought it told the processor which format to choose. So if the SR button on my automation changes the sound to SR, which is SK3, then if I create a custom format screen, whatever format I assign to SK3 will now be selected by pressing SR on the automation? Interesting.
I had thought about doing a custom format for the trailers rather than the fader trick but here's the problem: we don't have any extra sound format buttons on our automation. I can't use AUX because it is not connected on the terminal block, and I don't want to reasign mono or A on account of the very unlikely chance that we ever get a print with one of those formats.
So let me see if I understand this correctly. Create a custom format screen with SR at a lower fader and not a source for auto digital, digital with the fader set to 7 as the auto digital target, and SR with no fader setting. Start the show with the custom SR format. When the feature starts, cue the processor for the standard SR. If digital is detected, it will switch to digital. Am I correct?
Okay, after having read that last paragraph back to myself, I have more questions. Brad said, "It is very important you do NOT assign any fader setting to SR. This way should the digital drop out, the CP500 will revert to SR at whatever fader setting your digital was playing at." So if I the show is playing in the User 1 (or whatever I call it) format, and then I cue to SR, if the print does not have a digital track and stays in SR, won't it continue to play at 4.5 (according to Brad's example) if there is no fader setting assined to SR? What happens if I cue the feature to start in digital instead of SR but there is no digital track? I assume it will just drop back to SR. But will the fader now be at 7 since ditial is set for 7?
So that I can leave mono and A in place on the automation (again, for the rare case we get such a print), could I use the SR button on my automation to activate the User 1 format (which I would assign to SK3), and put SR somewhere else on the Custom Format screen? If I did, would the processor drop to SR if it can't read the digital?
Regarding digital dropout: I assume that the processor by default drops to SR when in can't read the digital. In my above example about cueing the feature to start in digital but there being no digital track, what if the optical track is A? When the processor tries to switch to digital but doesn't see a digital track, will it drop back to SR? How would I get around this in such a case? (And how would I make it as simple as possible for any idiot running the booth to get around.)
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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-29-2002 03:46 AM
Our CNA-150's can do everything except AUX. Mono, Stereo, SR, Digital, and Nonsync. If memory serves, those are SK1, SK2, SK3, SK4, and SK7, respectively, on the CP-500.
Bonus Question: Can anything like this be done with the DTS-6AD?
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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-29-2002 10:29 PM
Well, it tried Brad's method out on one house today and it worked like a charm. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) There is only one problem I can forsee with doing this. We get a lot of volume complaints that the feature is too loud. Without custom formatting and preset fader levels, the fader will stay at whatever level it was set at when we adjust it. That means that the next show should not be too loud, because the fader will retain in previous setting. I think you can see where I'm going with this. With a preset level assigned to digital, any manual adjustments will be lost the next show. Now if it were me, I'd make note of what level I adjusted the fader to, and program format 10 to start at that level rather than 7. At the end of the week when we swap prints, I'd set it back to 7. But I am only one person, and can only do so much. I don't think the average person cares enough to be that detailed, so that will probablly never happen.
Brad: how do you delete the bass and surrounds? I couldn't seem to figure out how to do that.
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-29-2002 11:00 PM
Ok here we go. I've tried to write this as foolproof as possible...
It is important that you know which buttons SK1, SK2, SK3, SK4, SK5, SK6, SK7 and SK8 are. These are "soft keys" and are the 8 buttons surrounding the lcd panel. Check the CP500 manual if you do not know their exact numbering. (The manual is here on the site for download if you do not have a hard copy.) "EXIT OUT" means to keep pressing EXIT until you get back to the main screen.
TO SET CUSTOM SCREEN
MENU, SK1, SK3, SK2 (rotate dial to "custom"), OK, EXIT OUT
TO ASSIGN FORMATS ON A CUSTOM SCREEN
MENU, SK1, SK3, SK3, SK1 (press desired SK and rotate dial to whatever format you want assigned to that particular SK), OK, EXIT, OK, EXIT OUT
TO SET FADER LEVELS FOR A PARTICULAR FORMAT OR TO REMOVE SETTINGS ENTIRELY
MENU, SK1, SK3, SK3, SK2 (press desired SK and rotate dial to whatever fader level you want that particular format to play in, or select "none" if you are trying to eliminate this setting altogether), EXIT, OK, EXIT OUT
TO DELETE AUTO DIGITAL "TARGET"
Most CP500s are set up so that Dolby Digital (format 10/SRD) is in the SK4 position. Assuming that is the case with yours, follow these steps: MENU, SK1, SK3, SK3, SK3, SK4, EXIT, OK, OK, EXIT OUT
TO DELETE AUTO DIGITAL "SOURCES"
MENU, SK1, SK3, SK3, SK4, (press all SKeys with "s" in the box), EXIT, OK, EXIT OUT
TO RESET THE CP500 FOR "AUDITORIUM FADER"
This is generally only used with automations such as the CA21 or CNA200, where the actual adjustment for the volume is controlled on the automation. Bear in mind on many CP500s whenever you go into the MENU that this will automatically reset to "local fader". IF you are using an automation that controls the fader volume, do this to make sure it is reset: MENU, SK1, SK1, SK4 (make sure this is set to "enabled", use the dial if you need to select it), OK, EXIT OUT.
There is also a shorter path to achieve this: MENU, SK7 (make sure this is set to "enabled", use the dial if you need to select it), OK, EXIT OUT
If you just made this adjustment and suddenly you no longer have any sound, then you just screwed up and you need to go put it back, as this means your automation is not designed to actually vary fader level and you will want to follow the directions here under "TO SET FADER LEVELS FOR A PARTICULAR FORMAT OR TO REMOVE SETTINGS ENTIRELY" to achieve this feature.
TO CREATE A CUSTOM USER FORMAT
In this example we will be creating a custom format called "User 5" which is nothing more than Dolby SR analog without surrounds or subwoofers.
MENU, SK1, SK3, SK4 (select format User 5), SK1 (select 05), OK, SK8, SK2, (rotate fader until the arrow is pointing at the channels you want to omit, in this example this will be Ls, Rs, and Sub, and press SK2 to "open" each one), SK4, SK5, OK, EXIT OUT Now that you have created a User format, make sure you go back to the above "TO ASSIGN FORMATS ON A CUSTOM SCREEN" and place it on whichever soft key your automation will be switching to for trailers.
WARNING Be forewarned if you should choose to make a custom User format based off of format 10 (Dolby Digital) that you will lose your analog reversion in the event the digital drops out! To my knowledge, the CP500 is not "smart" enough to understand. If anyone knows of a way to do this, please educate me.
Regarding your volume complaint, since "most" movies play at about the same fader setting in a given auditorium, find out what "most" movies play well at. If this is 7.0, then pre-program format 10 to play at 7.0. If this is 5.5, then pre-program format 10 to play at 5.5. Be sure and tape a quick note on the side of the sound rack for other projectionists and managers to know how to alter this pre-programmed level in the event they play a film mixed overly loud like "Die Another Day". All it really needs to say is "MENU, SK1, SK3, SK3, SK2, (set level), EXIT, OK, EXIT OUT". This is of course assuming you have explained to them how to do it in your absense. Most projectionists who have this setup can make the adjustment in less than 10 seconds without even thinking about it, once they have done it a few times.
*****SO WHAT ABOUT THE CP500 WITH DTS PEOPLE???*****
Simple!
Let's assume your automation is going to select SK1 at the beginning of the trailers and SK2 at the beginning of the feature. (Note that the dts player needs SK3 left as SR with no fader setting and no pulses coming from the automation to SK3 for this to work.) Create a custom format screen like above and tell the CP500 that you want to have THREE Dolby SR soft keys. Place your SR on SK1, SK2 and SK3. Now assign fader settings to SK1 (at trailer level) and SK2 (at feature level). Make SURE that SK3 (SR) and SK5 (external 6 channel) have no fader settings pre-programmed in.
Now so long as you make SURE that your automation pulses SK2 BEFORE dts timecode is picked up after your trailers are over but BEFORE your feature begins, you are ready to go. Whenever a trailer is picked up and starts playing on the dts player, it will retain the fader setting you programmed into SK1. At this point even if every other trailer is alternating between dts and SR, the CP500 will preserve your SK1 fader's setting as it automatically toggles between the two formats. Once the feature cue passes (pulsing to SK2), the dts will kick back in once it sees timecode. At this point the dts can kick in and drop out as much as it wants throughout the feature, alternating between SK5 and SK3 at whatever fader setting you have programmed into SK2, just like with the trailers. Do note that it is CRUCIAL that you have at least several seconds of black film with NO TIMECODE on it between your last trailer and your feature. If your policy trailer is not dts encoded, then this will work fine putting the cue at the head or tail of the policy. Otherwise it will be necessary to insert a strip of black film in between the last trailer and the feature. Your feature cue (which pulses SK3) should be on this strip of black film, and this black film should be no less than 5 feet long with the cue at least 3 feet from the end of it.
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