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Author Topic: Eidophor Projector
Paul Trimboli
Master Film Handler

Posts: 274
From: Perth Western Australia
Registered: Dec 2002


 - posted 12-16-2002 07:38 AM      Profile for Paul Trimboli   Email Paul Trimboli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why did Eidophor television projectors never really take over, they are better then DLP, the pixels are not fixed or anything. Screen sizes up to approximately 40 by 50 feet; 80 times brighter than than the best three tube CRT systems; up to 1250 lines horizontal, 120 Hz vertical; Video bandwidth, 50 Mhz; all digital control; white field brightness levels of over 10,000 lumens; projection throws of over 650 feet. http://pyanczer.home.mindspring.com/Tour/eidophor.html that is a link on the system and how it workes for those who have not heard of it.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 12-16-2002 07:43 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Eidophor projectors where extremely expensive and high maintinance. In the 1980's there where a few in use in post production houses in Los Angeles in which I viewed several presentations for SMPTE and other groups and the techs told me that the down time was high for the hours in use....not good for a cinema owner who wants to get rid of those "pesky" technical people.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-16-2002 09:38 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Odeon Leicester Square in London had an Eidophor permanently installed at one time, there's a picture of it here: Eidophor at Odeon. I don't know of any other permanent installations in cinemas, but they were sometimes put in for special events. The same site also has a picture of a very early Eidorphor here: Early Eidorphor.

I would love to know how they used the carbon arc ones; did they do changeovers with them, or were they only used for short periods?

I only saw Eidophors used a few times, they were brighter than just about anything else available at the time, but that's about the only good thing they had going for them. They were very expensive, very large, very heavy, needed a lengthly alignment procedure, and constant knob twiddling to keep a reasonably stable picture on screen.

In the mid '60s I saw an outdoor demonstration of colour television done with six monochrome ones, two for each colour all registered (sort of) on the screen, to get enough light.

[ 01-21-2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-16-2002 03:44 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One "unique" artifact that I have seen was "bubbles" floating around in the image, since the image is formed on a thin layer of liquid:

http://pyanczer.home.mindspring.com/Tour/eidophor.html

As others have said, they had a reputation as high maintenance equipment.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-16-2002 04:30 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul wrote:

quote:

Why did Eidophor television projectors never really take over

It's not really a question of them not taking over; at one time they were about the only technology which could fill a large screen. Today, other technologies have taken over from them. I hope a few Eidophors have been preserved in working order somewhere.

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Dick Vaughan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1032
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 12-17-2002 03:49 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have an Eidophor in the Museum collection which I believe is potentially restorable to working condition. I shall ask my esteemed colleagues responsible for the TV collections and get back to you

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-17-2002 06:07 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For one thing, at the time there weren't the high-end video storage sources like Laserdiscs or DVD and certainly no HD format, so all they could get was closed circuit land-line NTSC transmissions in real time, and that was by no means cheap. Plus, the studios weren't exactly pushing "printless" technology or involved the way they seem to be now. If you don't have a route back to the movie suppliers and a desire on their part to supply product in a useable video format, what good is a video projector?

Then again, I've been told that the big thing about a video projector is that the image is always "pristine." That "need" was not an issue back then, because evidently trained projectionists were able to keep prints clean for the duration of a first run engagement, even after a year running the same print (imagine that!). Also back then, the industry didn't seem obsessed with the idea that the movies just weren't going to be made because the cost of prints in the over-all budget was too astronomically expensive.

What Eidophor needed was George Lucas.....and the word DIGITAL. [Smile]

Frank

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Old Coulsdon, Surrey, UK
Registered: Jan 2003


 - posted 01-20-2003 05:20 PM      Profile for Hugh McCullough   Author's Homepage   Email Hugh McCullough   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I worked on the Eidophor during the 1970s at the Odeon Leicester Square.
It was mostly used for the Royal Film Performance, Mohammed Alli fights, and American Football.
This was the monochrome machine that was owned by the Odeon.
Yes, they were very expensive, and this was probably the main reason that they did not get brought by the cinema chains in large numbers.
The Odeon machine cost £14,000. A complete projection set up of three Vic 10s, three Zenith arcs, three penthouse 4/6 track mag sound heads, preamps, and 12 lens cost £6465.
The Eidophor was indeed trouble to keep running, and a very long set up time was required. It was not unusual to take as long as six hours to pump out the vacuum. This extended set up time, plus the running time meant that it was prone to overheat in the Summer months.
To overcome this problem we used to surround the machine with as many fans as we could beg, steal, or borrow from other parts of the building. Oh yes, us projectionists were very popular when we had to do this.
I can remember getting into trouble during an American Football game when we showed the American commercials. New York was supposed to telephone us 10 minutes before the commercial break so that we could cap the lens at the correct time. Unfortunately this time they did not notify us, and we showed the first two adverts.
On very special occasions we used to hire a colour Eidophor, but this was set up, and operated by technicians supplied by the hire firm.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-20-2003 10:30 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome to Film Tech Hugh all film tech members should check out his site cinephoto
http://www.cinephoto.co.uk/

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 01-21-2003 03:49 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Hugh, you are almost a neighbour of mine, I am living in Station Approach, Coulsdon North, at the moment, but looking to move up to North Yorkshire sometime in the next year or two. I take the 60 bus home, from work, but get off at the Red Lion, I,ve never stayed on it as far as old Coulsdon.

I visited the new London Weekend Television studios on the South Bank soon after they opened, they had a monochrome Eidophor there, as far as I remember it looked the same as the Odeon one. I remember that there were several 5 litre bottles of de-ionised water standing next to it, which were marked that they were to be kept with the Eidophor; what would they have been used for?

How often did the Odeon use their machine? By my day, '60s onwards, video projection in cinemas was very rare, the odd boxing match was advertised, but that's about all. I think the Odeon, ex Gaumont Palace, Lewisham, and the Astoria, Old Kent Road, did a few of these. Having no interest whatsoever in boxing, I never saw any of these. I am surprised that the Odeon found it worthwhile to buy a machine, rather than hireing in when required.

Were the GK Vistavision projectors still at the Odeon when you were there? I am very interested in these machines, but have not been able to find out when they were removed. The photographs of them show the BTH SUPAs in the background, so I am guessing that they may have been taken out when the Vic. Xs were installed, but I've seen no real evidence for this.

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Old Coulsdon, Surrey, UK
Registered: Jan 2003


 - posted 01-21-2003 05:37 PM      Profile for Hugh McCullough   Author's Homepage   Email Hugh McCullough   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Gordon for mentioning my web site.
Never been up the hill to Old Coulsdon Stephen? You haven't lived.
The water was used as a cooling agent to keep the operating temperature of the oil layer at, I think, 10C.
It was pumped through hoses into the vacuum chamber, and a cooling pipe fixed to the revolving mirror.
A funny idea as water boils in a vacuum, but it worked.
In the winter we had to be careful that the water did not freeze during the night when the cinema was empty. To this end we drained the water out. We could not take the chance of the pipe bursting in the mirror cassette as these were very expensive to replace.
The Eidophor was purchased to replace the Rank Cintel machine.
The VistaVision projectors were placed one each side of the box with the SUPA projectors between them.
When they were removed, and what became of them I do not know.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 01-22-2003 06:57 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hugh wrote:

quote:

The VistaVision projectors were placed one each side of the box with the SUPA projectors between them.
When they were removed, and what became of them I do not know.

Hugh,

In May/June last year I had some communication with somebody about the Vista projectors. This was by private e-mail, so I cannot quote their reply to me without their permission. I think it is ok for me to give myself permission to quote part of the text which I wrote to them.

I wrote:

quote:

Is it possible that the Odeon was the only cinema to have the Kalee machines, and that the other pair were supplied new to Pinewood, and never were installed in a public cinema? Do you know how long the machines remained at Pinewood, or indeed, if they are still there. I know that they had a large triple head rear projection system there, which I believe could run 8 perf plates, and ,of course, Vista cameras have been used in recent times for original photography for special effects shots, so Pinewood would have had a need for Vista projectors long after they became redundant in normal cinemas.

You also say that the other pair went to a local technical college. Was this the then Wandsworth Tech. (Now South Thames College)? When I left school in 1974, I attended this institution for four years, training to be an audio visual technician with the I.L.E.A., which I remained until 1990, when I moved to my present post as an I.T. technician at Croydon College. I remember one day being suprised to see some 35mm slides with an optical track on the top edge, I was not aware of the existance of Vistavision at this time. I was shown a short roll of print, from which the slides had been cut, and was told that the projectors had been taken to the College when they were removed from the cinema, I don't think that they said which cinema this was, but that they were no longer there.

The main hall of the old building had, until fairy recently at that time, several 35mm machines installed, but these had all been removed, and the hall had been taken over by builders. When the builders moved out, just a single Elf 3000 16mm xenon machine was installed, two more firsts for me, the first time I had seen 16mm used on a large screen, and the first xenon I had seen.

There were two staff I remember who taught projection, by this time just 16mm on portable machines, but we had to learn, and be tested on, all the models that the ILEA had in use at that time, their names were, if I remember correctly, Ted Church and Harry Court. Ted was quite old at the time, and Harry had been ill, so I don't know if either of these gentlemen is still alive, but they had stories going back to sound on disk days.

<Snip>

Anyway, back to Vistavision. Did you attend the event a Grip House Studios a few years ago at which some VV was shown? this was done using a modern projector, using a reel of the old 'Battle of the River Plate' print. I think this must have been from the print which ran at the Odeon. The print was very badly faded, almost no colour left, but it still looked impressive. No soundhead was fitted to the projector, but the track was Magenta VD, similar to that found on some old Disney 16mm prints. This is interesting, because I have heard that this was the only film shown in this country, but I remember that the film I saw at college had a duo-bilateral VA track, and therefore would seem to have been from a different film.

I believe that at least certain parts of these projectors still exist, though possibly not enough to re-assemble a complete machine. Some parts appear to have been common with other 'modern', i.e. post-war, gold-coloured Kalee standard 35mm machines. Whether it would be technically possible to rebuild a Kalee Vistavision machine, using partly original perts, partly standard Kalee parts, and making the remaining parts new, I don't know. It might be an expensive exercise.

It's a pity that one of these machines was not preserved somewhere in working order.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-22-2003 06:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remeber a previous thread on this subject and something of the fact they ended up in the Swiss regions

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 01-22-2003 07:13 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hugh wrote:

quote:

Thank you Gordon for mentioning my web site.
Never been up the hill to Old Coulsdon Stephen? You haven't lived.
The water was used as a cooling agent to keep the operating temperature of the oil layer at, I think, 10C.
It was pumped through hoses into the vacuum chamber, and a cooling pipe fixed to the revolving mirror.
A funny idea as water boils in a vacuum, but it worked.
In the winter we had to be careful that the water did not freeze during the night when the cinema was empty. To this end we drained the water out. We could not take the chance of the pipe bursting in the mirror cassette as these were very expensive to replace.
The Eidophor was purchased to replace the Rank Cintel machine.

Hugh, I hadn't realised that was your site, some interesting material there.

I thought the water might be for cooling, but have I understood you correctly, that it was actually used inside the vacuum chamber? I don't understand how you could maintain a high vacuum in contact with water; or have I misunderstood you, was the water inside a container of some sort, which was inside the vacuum chamber, but the water itself was not in direct contact with the vacuum?

Do you know anything about the Cintel machine? How did it work? Was this the same type of machine which was installed in the Telekinema at the Festival of Britain?

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 01-23-2003 09:58 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon wrote:

quote:

I remeber a previous thread on this subject and something of the fact they ended up in the Swiss regions

Gordon, the discussion I had by e-mail came out of that thread. It was with another member of these forums, and updated the information given in that thread, but I do not have that persons permission to quote his reply to me.

What about the American, Century?, Vistavision machines; do any of them still exist? I think there were a few more of them than there were of the GK ones.

I assume that the projector built by Mark Gulbrandsen, with pictures on the Film-Tech site is still around. I'm not sure what the modern machine I saw at Grip House Studios in London was, I don't think it was Marks one, It looked different.

I know that on both the GK and Century machines the film ran from bottom to top, and the sound head was below the gate, so the sound must have been printed in retard of the picture, but I don't know by how many frames, does anyone know this, and also the position of the magnetic sound intended to be used on Technirama 8 perf prints?

The usual reason given for the film running upwards is that it avoided having to lift full 6000 foot spools into the top spool box, yet projectionists have to lift 15000 foot spools onto towers. Was it that the top spool box was further away from the operator, due to the horizontal gate, which would have involved stretching out, or leaning forwards with a heavy spool, rather than just lifting it?

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