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Author Topic: Oil Leak on FP20 Michael Harlow Expert Film Handler Posts: 170 From: Faversham, Kent, UK Registered: Jul 2002 posted 11-27-2002 02:31 PM                     Hi, Well, i've got my picture bounce sorted out at last (thanks to Peter Hall for that). Now i have another slight problem, and oil leak ! Oil is getting onto the intermittant cog from somewhere and then getting into the film path, i have very oily adverts now ! any ideas where this is coming from and how i can stop it ? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 11-27-2002 02:37 PM                        I'd hazard a guess that it is the gasket that seals the intermittent unit to the side of the chassis. I did once work with a leaky FP for a while and was told by everyone I asked that unless it was virtually haemmorhaging (sp?) oil, the best bet was to live with the leak and keep cleaning rather than attempt to repair it. You have to take the entire gate assembly to bits in order to extricate the intermittent sprocket and shaft from the bottom of it. Then you've got to remove the intermittent unit itself in order to get at the gasket. Finally, the fun bit - putting it all back together again. I have done this once, to replace a failed intermittent in an emergency situation. As Prince Philip said to the Prime Minister of Canada, I can think of better ways to have fun.  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-27-2002 03:32 PM                     First off there is NO gasket that seals the intermittent to the chassis, the intermittent is a sealed unit. The leak will more than likley be from the seal(s) on the sprocket shaft itself. This requires a drain down of the intermittent and removal of the gate assembly, just as you would to change the framing bush. On the gate assembly there is a tube that has an 'O' ring on it and a couple of seals which seal the actual intermittent shaft itself. If you've recently removed the gate assembly to work on the framing bush there is a possibility the 'O' ring was damaged when you assembled things. So it is always a good policy to relace this at the same time. To replace the seal(s) is not a job for the faint hearted and I would recommend you get it repaired by a properly equiped engineer. The seals are not expensive but do require the correct tools to seat them. Without the tools its a hit and miss affair and not worth the risk especially if you are relying on the projector. I was once forced by someone, a verbal bully who knows better, to replace these seals against my wishes without the tools to do the job. Needless to say it didn't work.... its a case of the right tools for the job or leave it alone.  |  IP: Logged Darren Briggs Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: York, UK Registered: Dec 2001 posted 11-27-2002 03:50 PM                        At it again I see! lol Darren, Cya later this week Leo.  |  IP: Logged Gordon Bachlund Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 696 From: Monrovia, CA, USA Registered: Aug 1999 posted 11-27-2002 05:27 PM                        Ken is quite correct. And, from personal experience, new seals will stop the oil.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 11-27-2002 06:09 PM                     Are there special tools for the Phillips machines? I've just done this very job on a couple of DP75's and whilst I don't have any Phillips tools, I have got oil seal extracting/fitting gadgets, which worked well enough. At any rate the seals are in and the machines are no longer leaking oil!  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-28-2002 01:04 AM                     Pete, there are tools for the job, as for them being special Kinoton tools... I'm not sure. The main point I was making is to use the right tools for the job such as your extracting/fitting gadgets. It can of course be done without them but it is more of a risk. Experience is the key when attempting these types of jobs.... especially as you have to effectivly destroy the original seals to remove them. Once you start the job its all or nothing so if you mess it up you are in a worse state than when you started. You are an experienced engineer and therefore can attemp these jobs without difficulty and I wouldn't even consider questioning that. As for 'At it again Darren'.... I was being forced to do a job without the right tools and very much against my better judgment. The result was a failure. Don't attemp these jobs without the right tools and experience unless it is a dire emergency. And even then I'd make sure I had an extra spare set of seals to hand. There is a very real danger with some of the excellent advice given out here that people will attempt to do a repair and end up in deep Doggy Do Do! It's difficult to give clear, absolute advice based on the information given in some of the questions posted here as they may not be complete or accurate. There is a warning on the site about following the advice given here and I hope I am reinforcing that. You yourself have given out a bit of information that was not 100% accurate and whilst it was a minor point it could so easily have caused grief if it had been a more serious issue. I'm sure I've done similar. The difference is that I'm in a position to get out of a problem due to my experience. I take the time to consider the job in hand and where needed I am more than happy to ask for advice. Over an electronic medium such as the internet it is easy to make assumptions and to miss things when describing a fault due to the instant nature of sending questions and replies. So it is important not to encourage those with less experience to attempt work that could well cause further serious damage. If you attempt to make a repair then it's your decision and your own responsibility.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 11-28-2002 08:14 AM                        Ken - thanks for the correction on seals and gaskets. I think we're agreed on a course of action though - don't attempt to fix it unless and until it's actually broke (the occasion on which I changed an intermittent was indeed a dire emergency). The FP I worked on which had a minor leak was a case of cleaning thoroughly around the intermittent sprocket betweeen each show, and on the chassis below the intermittent unit at the start of each day. That was enough to stop any oil from getting on the film. I'd say it needed topping up by about 10-20ml a week.  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-28-2002 09:25 AM                     Thanks for that Leo.... I am concerned that when an error is made with information, genuine though it may be, the person attempting the job is suddenly faced with the unknown. They've started the job and don't know what to do next. Jobs that I'm unfamiliar with I try to do last thing at night so if I do hit a snag I'm not working against the clock. While we are talking about removing the gate assembly on the FP20, it worth covering one or two important points and some of the cleaning jobs that should be done at the same time. When you are removing the intermittent sprocket DO NOT remove the end bearing before you have removed the nut & bolt that holds the sprocket in place. You may have to apply quite a bit of pressure to undo the nut & bolt so its best to have the bearing in place to take the pressure. Once that's done then remove the end bearing and slide the sprocket off the shaft. Once you have the whole gate assembly off you should clean the Polo mint's and spring assembly. As you look 'end on' to the gate assembly you will see two aluminium disc's sunk into the casting. These are the cups that retain the springs for the Polo mint springs and pistons. On the outer edge of the assembly they are usually flush with the casting, the inner pair are slightly sunk in. Note their positions so you can put them in the same position when you re-assemble the gate. Taking care to catch the spring cup, undo the retaining screw and remove the cup, spring and piston with the retaining nipple on it. You'll be shocked at how much filth has built up in there. You can also remove the mounting for the piston if you want. Either way give everything a good clean out. Do this to all of the spring assemblies. This is a job that can only be completed with the gate removed so its a 'once every few years job'. You can do the outer pair with the gate in place, but that's only half the job. If you've got an oil leak then the assembly will be covered in 'mud' so use a good solvent to remove all traces of oil. When you have finished cleaning and replacing the seals etc a light smear of oil on the 'O' ring will help assembly and possibly the same on the intermittent shaft. You should only have to apply light to moderate pressure to slide the sprocket back into place. Again DO NOT attempt to tighten the sprocket nut & bolt until the end bearing is back in place to give support to the shaft. The final adjustments to your re-assembled, clean and non leaking gate are covered in the projector manual but if you need any further advice just ask. Regards.  |  IP: Logged Peter Hall Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: London, UK Registered: Dec 2000 posted 11-28-2002 11:59 AM                        There are two types of inner oil seals on the FP20 ; 8 15 7 8 16 7 Depending on the age of the machine. Have both in hand, and I'd reccomend a couple of spares (they cost less than £GBP5 / $USD 8 i guess). We've done dozens of these - requires a gentle touch but we've never had or needed special tools. A corkscrew to remove, and a socket set and appt washer to knock the new ones in. Other oil leaks (more on the newer FP30s) are around the intermittent pully drive shaft, shutter shaft and large O ring in the intermittent. The older FP20s dont seem to suffer from these leaks, although the "mighty" DP75 seems to piss out oil from the oddest places.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 11-28-2002 01:42 PM                        Ken - point taken about points of information, although I think you were misunderstanding the context of my earlier post. 'I'd hazard a guess that...' is not representing the following statement as fact; and your point about giving misleading advice is a non sequitur in this case for the simple reason that my advice was 'don't do it'. The phrasing of Michael Harlow's original enquiry suggested to me that he was no more of an engineer than I am; and based on my experience of having to remove an FP intermittent in an emergency I was quite clearly and unambiguously advising him not to try it unless there was absolutely no alternative. I do try and point out when I do and do not have the qualifications and experience to back up a point or suggestion I make, here or anywhere else. For example, I do have expertise - and a formal qualification - in handling nitrate, but not in mechanical engineering. I think the above post makes it quite clear that the advice is from an FP user's perspective, not an engineer's. If I'd been suggesting that the original enquirer should act on the inaccurate information I'd given (i.e. go looking for a gasket which didn't exist), that would have been another thing altogether. I do not claim to be an expert on FP20s. In fact, I haven't touched one for nearly three years, which might go some way to explaining the confusion between seals and gaskets. BTW, a small point: I'd assumed that your comment two posts above '...you yourself have given out inaccurate information...' was directed at Darren, because you address him directly in an earlier paragraph. I now get the impression that it was directed at me, viz the seals and gaskets issue. If so, that's not a problem, because I did get that fact wrong. But if you're pointing out that a specific individual has made a factual error, then IMHO it's probably best to be completely unambiguous as to who it is you are referring to.  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-28-2002 04:00 PM                     Thanks again Leo... it was not aimed at you, or Darren for that matter. Just that its easy to miss a point or make an assumption. The points made were in general rather than intended to be a slap on the wrist to anyone in particular. The worst thing that could happen is someone attempting a job and finding out that things are not what they expected half way thru! We all try to be precise but it is easy to miss a point when typing and thinking at the same time. The speed with which you can send off a post does not allow time to consider what's been typed. If you read the posts thru I trust you will agree with me. Peter, a gentle touch.... nows there's an interesting concept. Right tools for the job... whatever those tools may be. Regards.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-28-2002 04:16 PM                     Even more amazing is how the DP75 will change locations like underwear as to the source of the leak du jour  |  IP: Logged Mark Hathaway Film Handler Posts: 31 From: Australia Registered: Nov 2001 posted 11-29-2002 06:45 PM                     While this isn't DIRECTLY related, it relates to the fp30 with the motor that has the spinning casing. when your setting the intermittent pre load screw, make sure that you don't force the motor's shaft/bearings into an unhappy position. Loosen the motor/intermittent coupling when you set the pre load, so as to not load the motor bearing. There is nothing like a 20 minute session with some large diameter hose stuck to ones ear hunting for an annoying squeel that wasn't there before you started. Mark Hathaway Atlab Image and Sound Technology Melbourne, Australia "Ready to conquer the world, I have reduced all necessities into one Pelican case"  |  IP: Logged

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