Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » splice finder

   
Author Topic: splice finder
Russell Smith
Film Handler

Posts: 3
From: Eastleigh, Hants
Registered: Nov 2002


 - posted 11-04-2002 03:12 PM      Profile for Russell Smith   Email Russell Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm building a splice finder for my final year project at uni.

The aim of this project is to help the projectionist save time when assembling and dismantling films, and to help keep the picture clean and stop the digital audio tracks getting damaged. This will improve the quality of the overall performance of the cinema.

I have built a cinema film frame counter, and I'm expanding it, so it remembers where splices are. it will give an audible/visual warning on approach, so you don’t have to mark to surface of the film. Possibly, as this warning system is logic driven, it could drive a motor to find the splice for you at the press of a button. I also plan to have automation change memory locations so we can lose the foil tabs.

The film is made up on a “rewind bench”. It is on a plate on the left, and goes across (not touching) the splice tool, to the take-up spool which is on the right. I plan to have the film counter positioned between the plate and the splice tool, so the projectionist can pass the film through it, and when he/she makes a splice, he/she can press enter on the counter to store it to memory.

I want to be able to scroll through the memory locations, so they can be edited if need be. Also, it needs to be able to switch between splice locations and automation change location. Then when the film is being broken down, the device will be switched to replay mode. A small replay counter will also be needed for the projector to do the automation change process.

If anyone thinks this is a good idea, is interested in the progress, or can give any advice or ideas, please don't hesitate to get in touch with me. Thanks for giving time to read this and I hope to hear from someone soon.
Russ

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-04-2002 03:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Frame Count Cueing" is often used to make scene-to-scene light changes during printing. It replaced film notching or application of foil cues to the printing negative.
here Frame Count Cueing
here DuArt FCC System

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here


 |  IP: Logged

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 11-04-2002 04:48 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your idea has a lot of potential in regards to print inspection. Quite honestly I've given up inspecting prints by hand due to lack of time. Any errors will be caught when we screen them the night before anyway. However, with your device I could set a reel spinning on the rewid bench and load a few films t the same time. The key, however, is to make it affordable. If it gets to be too expensive it won't have a life beyond archives and other places that inspect a lot of film.

As for its application in breakdown of movies, not needed. I have pretty poor eyesight, likely the worst of anyone posting on Film Tech that still works in a theatre. However, my fingers work just fine for finding my unmarked, clear tape splices.

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-05-2002 01:52 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I have built a cinema film frame counter, and I'm expanding it, so it remembers where splices are.

Someone wrote an article in Cinema Technology describing a system like this about 4-5 years ago I think. I remember thinking at the time that it would work pretty well in the case of brand new release prints that are handled perfectly throughout their time in a given cinema, but that the problems would come with older prints, prints of rep titles and when accidental damage happened.

If I'm understanding you correctly, then for the system you propose to be 100% reliable, the only joins permissable throughout the length of a print are the ones at reel ends. Once you're dealing with more of them then the potential exists for it to get confused. For example, what happens if you have a platter wrap in the middle of a reel which mangles a couple of feet beyond hope? Firstly, you've introduced at least one extra splice and secondly you've reduced the length of the reel by two feet or so.

So I'd guess that you'll need to build in error checking devices. Firstly, the system will need to remember the length (in feet and frames) between each of the splices that you have made, and thus stored in its memory. Therefore if, when packing the print off, the system finds a splice in a position that does not correspond to the length it's expecting, it will know that it isn't a splice that was made when the print was originally prepared. And in the case of very old rep prints in which you can easily have 10-20 splices in each reel, it will need a facility to detect and remember how many 'false alarm' splices (i.e. ones which you didn't put there) there are between the actual reel end splices that you've made. Again, if you have to introduce a new one following a film break, it will know that it wasn't there when the print was made up, and should be capable of picking up the sequence of 'false alarm' splices through to the next reel end thereafter.

Finally, whatever method you are using to detect the splices (an infra-red beam?) will need to be able to distinguish between tape, cement and ultrasonic splices. The ability to detect defective splices (e.g. ones with several layers of tape, are at a skewed angle or with a massive overlap) and warn the projectionist to remake tham would also be very useful.


 |  IP: Logged

Russell Smith
Film Handler

Posts: 3
From: Eastleigh, Hants
Registered: Nov 2002


 - posted 11-05-2002 05:27 AM      Profile for Russell Smith   Email Russell Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the interest guys,

The system is nearly built, I only need to work on the program for the micro controller and the price should be as cheep as about £15 for all the electronics. I found an opto-coupler can detect the sprocket holes, then I divide by four to get the frame count. The micro I'm using also has flash ram, so it will hold its ram when switched off. I'm more worried about the cost of the rollers etc.

Surely if you feel for the splices when breaking down the film, you would be damaging the Sony SDDS soundtrack that other cinemas might want to use?

Also, well remembered about the article in Cinema Technology, it was written by Roger Lownsborough, the chairman of the BKSTS education and training committee in April 98. He’s my project supervisor at Southampton Institute.

The system won’t actually be detecting the splices, it will only be remembering what frame they are located at, so it won’t get confused when it comes across splices due to accidental damage.

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-05-2002 05:40 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The system won’t actually be detecting the splices, it will only be remembering what frame they are located at, so it won’t get confused when it comes across splices due to accidental damage.

OK, but could it get confused by lost footage caused by accidental damage?

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-05-2002 05:32 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
"Surely if you feel for the splices when breaking down the film, you would be damaging the Sony SDDS soundtrack that other cinemas might want to use?"

That method does not damage the SDDS tracks.

 |  IP: Logged

Russell Smith
Film Handler

Posts: 3
From: Eastleigh, Hants
Registered: Nov 2002


 - posted 11-06-2002 05:18 PM      Profile for Russell Smith   Email Russell Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"OK, but could it get confused by lost footage caused by accidental damage?"

I plan to have a warning beep aproximatly 10 frames either side of the splice, So if it's not dead on, it will still get you close to the splice.

"That method does not damage the SDDS tracks."

O.K. I'll take you word for it, but if that method is o.k., and it's fast enough, why do people mark the film at all?


 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-06-2002 06:06 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only reason to ever mark splices on platters is to distinguish between splices at reel breaks and repair splices. With new prints (which rarely have more than one lab splice per reel to remove), this isn't normally an issue, so there shouldn't be a need to mark anything. With old, splicy prints, though, it sometimes makes sense to use zebra tape or other marking methods.

As for damaging the SDDS tracks, I doubt it's an issue. How many prints have playable SDDS tracks after they leave first run houses, anyway?

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-06-2002 07:14 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could something akin to an RTI Evaluator splice detector be developed into a make-up table? Some of the RTI 16mm machines had a device that would sense splices and or perf damage and stop the machine. I haven't taken a close look at how it is done, but I would assume it could be doable and useful for make-up & breakdown from a platter.


 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)  
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.