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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Cue marks on the left side

   
Author Topic: Cue marks on the left side
Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 11-01-2002 04:32 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Last night I watched the Spanish film "Lucía". It had the cue marks on the left side (yes, the film was played the right way). I don`t recall ever seeing this before.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-01-2002 04:37 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lab printed or hand scratched marks? I have never seen lab cues out of place, but I've seen hand made marks in every part of the frame, including the left side, or the entire frame . Some projectionists just don't think and too many others just don't care.

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 11-01-2002 04:55 PM      Profile for Bill Gabel   Email Bill Gabel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only times I get cues in the wrong place. Is on work prints, when a scene is dark or someones head is in the way. The editorial department does this on some of the work prints I get.

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German Marin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Verbania (VB), Italy
Registered: Jul 2001


 - posted 11-02-2002 01:22 PM      Profile for German Marin   Email German Marin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm agree with Joe. I've seen hand made cue marks in the exact center of the frame. I've noticed this happen because the (*)"film threders" cut more frames than they should.
(*)I call them Film threaders because there are a lot of diference between people who knows to works in the booth and that ones that just thread the film through the projector and then run the show.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-02-2002 05:21 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Depends on where they are within the movie.

I have heard a few different stories:

1) When the print gets beat up and the projectionist can't tell HIS cue marks from the last guy's he'll move them to another corner so he can tell. Some guys use a china marker and make an "X" or a slash mark in the picture instead.

2) There are some places that have light, curtain and sound cues. For instance, at the end of the feature there might be a cue in another corner to tell the operator when to fade the lights up or close the curtain.

3) In prints that have been played (or will be played) on telecine/video there may be "take cues" that come before the first frames of the reel for use by the guy at the control board. You'll most often see these on advertisements and not on reels of the feature, though.

4) Some old, foriegn films have cues in different places because (I assume) the placement of cues wasn't standardized at the time.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-02-2002 08:22 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone making indelible emulsion cues in any place but the standard position needs to have their fingers broken.

Lab cues, although not exactly invisible to the audience, are at least a solid, static dot. Emulsion scratch cues, even those made with a cue marker have an "animated" look because the cue marker will always have irregularities between each of the marks. Those cues scratched into the emulison without the assistance of a cue marker are even worse -- they dance. To molest a print with permanent emulsion marks to cue curtains or lights or whatever, is nothing short of criminal. All those additional, distracting marks will mar every presentation of that print for the rest of its life.

Grease pencil, even though it might be distracting for the one show, at least it can be easily removed, making it infinately more desirable than emulsion scratch cues.

When we get older prints that have multiple cues, sometimes even cues on top of cues and all in the wrong frames, we use Letraset black line material to cover then. The line material will even cover those disgusting cues made with hole-punchers. The line material presents a short duration, solid black block on the screen....much less of a distraction than the dancing white circles.

When we get prints that have cues in the correct postion but are scratched cues and not lab cues, we cover them with the Letraset black dots, especially in dark scenes or in fade-outs -- there is nothing more obvious than a white scratched cue in a completely black frame. Besides, in a fade-out, there is no need for the change-over cue -- just take the cue when the picture is completely black.

On prints that come in without any cues (usually we see this with foreign prints), we make the cues with the dots with a note in the can that explains that the cues can be removed when making up the print for platter use. There is no reason to have any cues at all for platter operation.

Since 99% of the prints will ONLY play platers, I would hope that sooner or later the industry would just eliminate cues all together. After all, even lab cues are alien marks in eight frames that could otherwise be pristine. With today's technology, there should be no needed for visible cues. For the few situations where a print will play in a change-over house, let the change-over folks add their removable cues for their run, then remove them so that future engagement can be presented pristine.

Frank

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-02-2002 11:52 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm going to disagree with Frank here: please don't get rid of the lab cues! I've seen so many bad excuses for cue marks done by theatres without the equipment or time to make them properly. Sadly, not everyone has a sync block and Clint Phare cue marker and instead will use things like hole punchers designed for paper, razor blades, etc.

Better to just let the labs make proper cues (which they do more consistantly than theatres) than to let some bozo in the booth screw them up.

I have no problem with people adding their own permanent cues to cue-less prints _if_ they do it properly. For those who don't have a proper cue marker, please use grease pencil or something removable and let someone with the proper device do it correctly later.

And 99% of prints only run on platters? Maybe for something like Harry Potter, but not for releases which have only a dozen prints or so for circulation in the US; I can pretty much guarantee than _all_ of them will eventually play in changeover houses.


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-03-2002 10:08 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

I guess the real question is what change-over booth the print winds up in. I just got a print where the lab cues were perfect but someone decided that they weren't visible enough (perhaps a projectionist who left his glasses home one day) and used the paper punch to "augment" the lab cues. So even lab cues don't guarantee a print won't be abused. In fact, if there are lab cues, the only reason new cues would be made in the field would be because frames were being lost by continued cutting of frames by sloppy print make-up and break-down. But again, I say all this kind of damage -- badly made cues and the accordion fan-fold, multiple splices at the leader joints can only be stopped by the print owner proactively making it clear that damaging prints by these practices will be charged back to the theatre. At the very least it would be good to see a series of "DO NOT" warnings in the cans: "DO NOT make cues other than with professional cue makers like Clint or equiv; NEVER use razor blades or paper punches or any other non-professional device to make cues. If no professional cue maker is available, make cues ONLY with removable grease pencil. DO NOT make cuts on new frames to remove and attach leaders -- only use the existing splice. DO NOT use masking tape anywhere on this print -- only use Artist Tape (Scotch 265 or equiv). Any print damage caused by ignoring these guidelines will be billed back to the theatre." The studios had no problem slapping on FBI warnings on every can they sent out for decades; they should put a little of the same effort to instill the fear of "bill back retribution" for print damage. If a manager came up waving a bill for print damage in his hand yelling, "You scratched big X's on that print of FRIDAY AFTER NEXT and I just got this bill for $500. It's going to come out of your pay check; do that one more time and you're fired." Bet that would be the last time that projectionist scratched X's in a print.

I wonder how many commercial change-over houses are left in the country. Add that to the non-commercial houses like our Brooklyn Center Cinema and the Loew's Jersey and I guess it is a sizable amount, but I would hope that change-over houses would have at least marginally capable projectionists in the booth, more so than the multiplexes. Or am I being too optimistic?

Frank

Loosing lab change-over cues would only work if the change-over houses were run competently.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-04-2002 03:36 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Since 99% of the prints will ONLY play platers, I would hope that sooner or later the industry would just eliminate cues all together.

The French labs already have. Get a print from LTC or Éclair and you'll find no lab cues on it. The problem is that arthouse cinemas (i.e. the ones most likely to show French prints) are more likely to run changeovers than multiplexes, with the result that each reel gets peppered with amateur, scratch-on cues really very quickly.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-04-2002 04:25 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I suppose bringing up the extended 6000' shipping reel is a wasted effort here.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-04-2002 07:29 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, yes it is, Brad....the industry couldn't get organized enough to impliment that idea, so it moved on to the much easier project -- that of converting all theatres in the western hemisphere to DLP.

Frank

Oh, and I almost forgot -- also converting to high-ho magenta tracks by 1997 and cyan-ara tracks by, what was it, 1999? Both moving right along here in 2002!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-04-2002 07:45 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
But you can damn well bet the industry didn't waste any time installing evil on-screen advertising slide projectors. Now they are installing video projectors to make the advertising even more annoying to run off more customers! Ahhhhhh, yes. Nothing beats getting ads slammed into your face at a place you pay to get in to.

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