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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Pre-emphasis on optical stereo tracks

   
Author Topic: Pre-emphasis on optical stereo tracks
Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-24-2002 09:01 AM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is pre-emphasis used in the 35mm optical chain? If so, is it used just to keep the response of the galvamometers in the sound camera balanced, or does it carry through to the print as well, i.e., to increase the s/n ratio as in FM?

Just a thought that hit my mind as I was seated upon the throne

Josh

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"Film is made of silver, video is made of rust"
'nuf said


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-24-2002 09:25 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The academy curve was a preemphisis de emphisis system
THere is some in the Noise Reduction systems but it is more f a compandng type function

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-27-2002 12:40 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed, Dolby's A-type and SR noise reduction systems provide a form of pre-emphasis and de-emphasis in that low level sounds are dynamically boosted in the encoder and reduced in the decoder which has the effect of pushing down the level of film noise. However this is very different from conventional pre(de)emphasis which normally uses a fixed filter characteristic. The Academy curve which was used for mono optical before Dolby became involved is primarily a replay-only filter and has a frequency response which falls off at 12dB per octave above about 5kHz. This is why old mono films sound so lacking at the HF end of things. Had it been a complimentary pre-emphasis/de-emphasis system (like the one used for FM radio) the end result would have been an overall flat frequency response (up to the limit of the film medium at the time).

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-27-2002 01:06 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray, was that 12db per octave?? I thought it was more like 3....or am I getting something confused here...


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-27-2002 09:14 PM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Definitely 12dB Paul, only I typed 2kHz when I meant 5kHz. I have corrected this error. You are probably thinking of Curve X used for room equalistion which is 3dB/octave attenuation above 2kHz.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-27-2002 11:37 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray,

This is something I never heard an explanation for....that is, why would large rooms require high frequencies to be attenuated with that -2db curve? Wouldn't you want frequency response to always be as flat as the equipment and speakers are capable of reproducing? Why would you want to roll-off top end? This roll-off is unique to large rooms, correct? As I said, I never heard a logical explanation for it.

Frank

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-28-2002 01:32 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Ray.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-28-2002 05:30 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In rooms with the acoustic characteristics such as the typical cinema, some frequencies are reflected more than others. As the noise is continually played into the room, those frequencies tend to build up more and more, as the acoustic energy pumped into the room is continuous in all bands, but the reverb dies sooner in some while some frequencies are still reverberating and reinforcing each other.
The X curve is to compensate for this as a real-life signal is not quasi-static like pink noise but changing its characteristics all the time and so does not lead to the frequency build-up.

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-28-2002 07:09 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, the Curve X rolloff is essentially a correction for errors in the measurement techniques that we use to measure acoustic frequency response in medium to large rooms. It has to do with the reverberant field verses the direct sound from the loudspeakers.

The sound picked up by our measurement microphones includes not only the direct sound but also the reverberant field, which tends to be rolled off at the high frequency end because high frequencies are absorbed more readily than lower frequencies. Our ears however are capable of differentiating between the spectral response of the direct sound and that of the reverberant field, so unlike our microphones, we hear the response of the direct sound and tend to ignore that of the reverberant field.

So if you were to equalise for a flat response on an RTA it would sound over emphasised at the high frequency end. The effect is more dramatic the bigger the room and hence the correction rolloff should be increased for larger rooms. In studio control rooms we normally equalise flat, with little or no correction, because the reverberant field is carefully controlled and, also because the room is small, usually fairly flat. So the microphones "hear" about the same response as our ears do.

I hope that all makes sense.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-29-2002 12:55 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yup yup....perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

But now that I've got you, perhaps you can clear this other littl irsome thing up. Way back somewhere, I recall (barely) a technician telling me that I had to be aware of both the temperature and the humidity in the theatre because both can attenuate the sound. Over the years however, my brain has lost the REST of that information -- I can't remember which is which. Does high temp attenuate the sound level or does cold attenuate it? Does high humidity attenuate or does low humidity? My guess would be that cold would attenuate because it would take more sound pressure to force the waves thru cold air where molecular density is sparce -- in a heated room the molecules already are zipping around with kenetic energy and it should be able to excite them with less acoustic output. But like I said, I am guessing. As for humidity, it's a toss-up; I have no idea at all.

Since most theatres today are have well controlled A/C, I doubt this has much bearing on sound levels, and I pretty much haven't given it a thought over the years, but I am also in charge of the Center's carillon which plays outside across an entire neighborhood. If temperature and humidity significantly affect the sound levels, it would be good idea to make sure I am correcting in the right direction

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.

Frank

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-29-2002 03:43 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, humidity (or rather the lack of it) is the major culprit in sound absorption in air, whereas temperature has far more effect on velocity than on absorption. The rule is: low humidity = high sound absorption, with high frequencies being affected much more than low frequencies. The worst case is between about 10% and 20% relative humidity with absorption being fairly constant above about 50%. So any room designed for sound should have a well maintained relative humidity of 50% or higher. Low temperature results in a loss of velocity for sound waves, however the difference in velocity for a temperature of 0C compared with 40C is only about 7%. By contrast, the difference in the amount of absorption for a 10kHz soundwave (at 20C) at a relative humidity of 20% is more than double what it is at 50%.

The observation that sound appears to travel further at different times of the day is due to temperature inversion layers reflecting sound upwards or downwards and has very little relationship with the absolute temperature of the air.

Hope this answers your questions sufficiently.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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