Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » A "good old days" picture (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: A "good old days" picture
John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 09-16-2002 09:27 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is my new favorite picture:

This is from the turn of the century, apparently before the invention of the takeup reel.

Now lets see what we have here. A hand-cranked projector, an arc lamp with an open window, but no takeup reel. Instead, the film is simply unspooled loosely into a big canvas bag, so the bag can contain up to 1000 feet of unwound nitrate film.

Meanwhile, we have a burning carbon arc, blazing plasma, with an open, unprotected front, about six inches away from the open bag of unspooled nitrate film.

Whew!

Now I understand that this equipment was manufactured around 1900, and motion picture film was so new that even the oldest film would be absolutely fresh by modern standards ...

Does this strike anyone else as a bit, well, unsafe?

 |  IP: Logged

Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 09-16-2002 09:50 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The projector shown is set up for limelight operation with the two gas tanks for areas without electricity. Safety as time goes on hopefully improves with upgrades....as an example, earlier limelight units used for stage follow spots prior to the pressurized gas tanks used bags of gas that was "pressurized" by standing on top of them while operating the lamp
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

 |  IP: Logged

Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 09-17-2002 12:07 AM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is indeed limelight and not a carbon arc. I have seen that projector refered to as a Power's Peerless and was one of his first machines if not the first. It was very common to not have a take up on many early projectors or sell it as an extra cost option. A picture from the N. Power Co. files printed in one of their books.
Dick

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-17-2002 12:54 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The bag is optional & would have been soon discarded or lost anyway.
You can see how doomed it is.
Generally the film was cranked into a box.

A friend of mine in the theater business who was at the opening of several silent theaters & whose father operated theaters & nickelodeons before that mentioned that in the days the film was cranked into a box or basket you had to be attentive & careful & catch the end of the film as it passed through - or you'd spend a LONG time digging through that wad of film.


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-17-2002 07:43 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any of you ever tried to operate a Powers projector?

Try and focus while maintaing the picture on screen. It is a front shutter machine and the crank will bring one of your hands in the way of adjusting the lens. Oh and there is a fire-shutter so if you go too slow, you lose the picture.

The bag was standard equipment and the lower magazine was optional.

For those of you that like the Powers projector, listen to "Smilin Lou Powers" on http://www.wbcb1490.com from 3:00 - 5:00pm Eastern Time Monday-Friday. He took his stage name from the Powers projector (and has "ERPI" for car tags) and owns many antique projectors and sound systems, some of which are on display at the museum of the moving image in NY and down at Universal Studios Florida.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 09-17-2002 01:57 PM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I did have the chance to toy around with a couple of old Powers units a few years ago, although they were not hooked up for power to their low intensity arc lamps and I did not try to thread them up with film.

The guy who had them in his shop, the late Al Moffa who rebuilt and sold projection equipment near Allentown, PA, had only recently acquired them when I saw them during a visit. It was definately different having to hand-crank a projector while maintaining a proper speed. I'm just glad we switched to motors and sound heads before Hollywood started releasing the 12 and 13 reelers like "Titanic" and "Gettysburg!"


 |  IP: Logged

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 09-17-2002 02:24 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The limelight observation is very interesting. I hadn't noticed that those cylinders were gas tanks. Are those really pressurized gas tanks, or are they low-pressure gas generators?

I would imagine that as you were unspooling the film into the bag, the film would shift around quite a bit. It seems to me that when it came time to rewind, you could potentially have a problem with the film tangling up and jamming. Was this a common problem?

I was paging through a 1900 Sears catalog reprint, and found a few pages of motion picture equipment. One of the descriptions lists the available options for an Optigraph projector (Price: $35.00)

quote:
"At purchaser's option, this machine can be fitted with lenses of different range without additional expense. The new 1900 Model No. 3 Optigraph represents the highest point of perfection attained in this class of machine and is the high class exhibitor's standard of excellence. It will run films backwards as well as forwards without stop or complicated adjustment. This will double the length of an exhibition, and is one of the most entertaining and available features in connection with the motion pictures, It has large reels accommodating as high as 500 feet of film, or if provided with special reel 1,200 feet can be handled. In this way a whole exhibition can be placed on reel at one time, dispensing with the necessity for changing films during the exhibition. It can be fitted with an automatic rewind attachment, which will take up and rewind the film as it runs from the reel. This is, however, a feature not regularly supplied.
(Grammatical anomolies in original text)

The catalog also describes the range of films available:

quote:
Hundreds of interesting and realistic subjects are now being exhibited through the agency of this machine. Our list is practically unlimited, and there is a range from grave to gay, from the sublime to the ridiculous, charges of soldiery in actual engagements, naval battles, mounted cavalry charging at full speed, acrobatic performances, trains at a great rate of speed, and in fact all kinds of locomotion, from the mule train to the limited express, and from the smallest boat to the Atlantic Liner are shown.
Nothing like mounted cavalry charging backwards to overstimulate the audience, eh?

The catalog also shows an acetylene gas generator that looks very much like one of the tanks pictured, for $8.00, accompanied with a gas burner for $7.00.



 |  IP: Logged

Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-17-2002 03:01 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another way of providing acetyline gas for limelight was through a generator in which water came in contact with powder at a controlled rate, as in the bicycle lanterns of the day. This method was used for lantern slide projection even before movies were invented, I believe.

The optigraph projector is the great ancestor of the Motiograph. Mr. Roebuck, of the famous catalog firm, sold one to Mr. Brenkert and his two sons, who began projecting as showmen, then as suppliers, franchising territories to projectionists they equipped and trained, eventually founding the Brenkert Light Projection Company, inventing spot- and flood-lights, the Brenograph, and the Brenkert BX 80, -40, -60, & -100 projectors, until their company taken over by RCA.

I have a 1900 Optigraph head at home, and a complete Powers #6, with
special Powers intermittant, with motor and SOS sound head added by the projectionist who used to project for farm audiences from a towed house trailer in half the state of Iowa (his brother serviced the other half with an identical trailer rig.)


 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-17-2002 03:04 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some links:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~rjnoye/Lantern/Lighting.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~billotto/Connections.html#Episode_7
http://www.dapllc.com/qaarchive/q0000707.htm
http://www.dapllc.com/qaarchive/q0000214.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-17-2002 03:48 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Limelight was widely used as an illuminant for magic lanterns but was not very common for motion picture projection, it had largely been replaced by the low intensity carbon arc by this time.

Some limelights used an ether saturator, a device which bubbled warm air or oxygen through a tank of ether, picking up enough vapor to burn with a hot flame, these were said to be even more dangerous than using gas.

Unwinding nitrate film into a bag or box, or even just a pile on the floor, was normal, even the longest films were just a few hundred feet. Of course, there were no cinemas at this time, films were shown as a short item in the programme at variety theatres, music halls etc, with the projector just set up in the middle of the audience; the results were in some cases sadly predictable.

In the uk, the Cinematograph Act 1909 required that films only be shown in properly constructed cinemas, with fire exits, separate, fireproff projection boxes with no access from the auditorium etc. Many new cinemas opened in 1910, and some of them are still operating today.

A loose pile of film will normally rewind onto a spool quite easily, providing it is not disturbed before rewinding, but it is quite likely to be scratched, or to pick up dirt in the process.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-17-2002 05:47 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, "The Clansmen" by D.W. Griffith was probably a 12+ reeler (I think I remember hearing that it was 16 reels). At least I didn't say that "I remember when I saw the clansmen first came out..."

As to tangling in the bag...nope you shouldn't have a problem there...tangling only happens when you MOVE the film not as a result of it laying down on itself.

Ever needed to turn a reel around whilst it is in the middle of a platter pack (built up tails first)? One method that will not harm the film is to wrap by wrap lay it down in a figure-8 fashion and then spin it back up onto a reel. It doesn't take as long as you would think and it won't harm the film nor will it tangle.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-17-2002 06:12 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Actually, "The Clansmen" by D.W. Griffith was probably a 12+ reeler (I think I remember hearing that it was 16 reels). At least I didn't say that "I remember when I saw the clansmen first came out..."

What was the date of this film? Surely, it was much later than any projector which dropped film into a bag or box, the latest projector I have seen, other than toys, which did that was from about 1901-2.

 |  IP: Logged

Darren Crimmins
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 130
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 09-17-2002 08:51 PM      Profile for Darren Crimmins   Email Darren Crimmins   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"The Clansman", AKA "Birth of a Nation" was made in 1915 and is 190 minutes long.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-17-2002 08:59 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
190 minutes of 1000' reels!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-18-2002 02:46 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The version of Birth of a Nation restored by Kevin Brownlow and David Gill in the early '90s runs 196 minutes. He varied the speed from shot to shot in many sequences, with some shots running as slow as 12fps. Brownlow has long argued that G.W. 'Billy' Bitzer (cinematographer on BOAN) used an abnormally slow cranking speed.

Steve: I've often thought that operating a front-shutter machine must not be for the faint-hearted. Get your finger in the wrong place (e.g. when reaching over to focus while looking at the screen) and it could be very painful!

Gerard/Stephen: Whilst being trained at MOMI, I was introduced to the delights (not) of the endless loop platters that were used in some of the exhibits. As the prints were acetate in those days, they were quite notorious for breaking on those platters, and the film would accumulate on the floor until the problem was spotted on one of the CCTV monitors. In such circumstances it was drummed into me to look carefully at the pile until I spotted the end and then to lift it off, i.e. not to sift through (and thus tangle) the film pile searching for it. The technique invariably worked, and you could lift the film cleanly off and pass it through a Selvyt and onto a running spool.


 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.