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Author Topic: Trouble with Brand New Strong Platters
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-02-2002 01:35 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have 2 factory new Strong platters. I have had them for 3 weeks. They are A3 phase controls and were manufactured in May and July of this very year. When I first set them up they ran great. Payout was smooth. So smooth, in fact, that it seemed like the decks and film were standing still. But over the course of a few days the payout began to become unsmooth. The film drags around the brain, sometimes even 2 wraps thick, for the entire show. I retime each deck and everything is smooth again for a few days. But then they begin to drift again! The problem does not follow a particular brain.

I do know that variac controlled platters are very nit-picky with the timing. Mess with the speed of one deck and you affect them all. But I have seen these things payout slower and slower over the course of my shift so I am sure that no one is tampering with them when I am not there. The platters need to be retimed once every 5 to 7 days it seems.

Any suggestions on what I can do to make these things run smooth 100% of the time? I would like to stress again that these are brand new.

I am ready to answer questions if you all need more info about the set up.


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 03:56 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, are both A-3's doing this, or just one of them? If they are both doing it, I would look for a common cause. The only thing that would be common is the input AC power.

Also, check the control rod from the elevator to the variac. If the jam nuts are loose, it could be doing some nasty adjustments to itself.

Another thing to look at....where is the elevator riding when the pay-out falls behind, and where is it riding when the platter is running normally? You will see a change over the course of the movie. If it is favoring the timing hole in the mast, it is probably riding too high. I would recommend you verify the variac setting before you start to time your platters. Remember - you have two holes in the mast. A Threading hole, and a Timing hole. The Timing hole is the upper hole.

I could be wrong on this, but when the elevator is resting on the bottom, the wiper on the variac should be about 50%. Would someone verify that setting, please?

Be careful of your motor tracking. If it is set too heavy, the motors will require more current. This was also a common failure with the Christie Autowind I's and II's. It caused alot of module failures on those machines. The SCR in the A-3 phase controls might not like that, either.

Never raise the elevator without turning off drive motor switches first. The surge current could damage the SCR's in the phase controls.

I believe that if Strong's engineers did something about the inductive spike that could occur across the SCR's, the phase controls would last a very long time.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-02-2002 09:50 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Simple Joe replaced those platters with old ORC's since we know how well you like them

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-02-2002 12:00 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would double check to see that the contact point (brush) in the variac is seated properly and didn't pop out cock-eyed during shipping. Also check all the connectors on the variac box to see if any pins have slid back in the connector housing (pay particular attention to the connectors that go to the column).

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-02-2002 01:22 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is how my personal experience with Phase Control has been, and its why I always replace them with micros. Phase control is VERY sensitive to the constant timming drifting around that these platters ahve ALWAYS exhibited. If ya get the micro's with .5oz(not the standard 1.0 oz)paddle tension you will never have a problem! Even the standard micros work better and are more stable than Phase Control ever was. The only other stable Strong Alternative is the Digital Control Platters which work very well.
Mark


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 01:47 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An experiment I might try on mine.....I have one phase control that still works, and yes, it does fall behind especially near the end of the movie when the elevator rises.

I might increase the size of the ballast resistor inside the motor can by a couple of Ohms. The resistor is a 25-watt 2 Ohms. This resistor is switched in series with the motor during the take-up mode. The elevator will ride lower if this resistor is electrically larger, hereby allowing more power to be applied to the pay-out motor so it won't fall behind. After it finally blows all the SCR's and is converted to micros as Mark describes, one can put 10 ohm 25-watt shunt resistor across the micro switch so the platter will not whip so badly.

I tried that already, and it works to a degree. However, the resistor I used was not large enough in resistive value. It has to be large enough so the platter will not creap in the pay-out mode while the plunger is engaged in the threading hole. It will be a trade-off between variac settings, the resistor value and motor tracking pressure for it to work right.

On a second thought, I think I will take a phase control unit and install it on a retro fitted micro-switch pay-out head on a CFS platter. The 10 ohm shunt resistor inside the motor, but I am not sure how the phase control will like that resistor. I'm gonna find out!!!!

So, off I go to Oak Harbor to snitch a brain for modification.

The old orange POTTS and blue CFS platters used a set-up very similar to this. Check the schematic, and you will see.....

As far as the Strong Digital platters are concerned, the jury is in. They have been out in the market for about 5 or 6 years now, and according to the feedback I have received, it is a very reliable machine. I will consider them in new construction.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-02-2002 04:03 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Stay with a Christie or SPECO platter Paul, at least until Strong finally admits to the serious design flaw in no breakdown backtension and either corrects it or designs some kind of add on clutch. That defect simply cannot be forgiven. I have passed a few emails to the powers that be, and thus far I have been told in happier wording the bottom line of "we don't care".

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 06:27 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Note that the purpose of the resistor that is put in the circuit on takeup is to increase the voltage that is available for payout. Without it the variac would settle into equilibrium at a lower voltage (exactly the same voltage as exists now after the resistor). Takeup would be unchanged but that would limit the voltage available for payout to that which is driving the take up and while they may be close in speed there needs to be some allowance for when payout needs more than the take up side (like when there's a full load on the payout deck and little on the takeup). The resistor shifts the variac equalibrium so that more voltage is available.

Perhaps this will help with your experiments.


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 08:11 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, that is exactly what that resistor does. I explained that in my post, but perhaps it was not as clear as the way you explained it. Thank you for explaining it another way. Here is a schematic on how that resistor is tied in the circuit.

Notice the 2-Ohm 25 watt resistor is in series with the motor on the rewind (take-up) mode. I have a tendency to believe if a 4-ohm or maybe an 8 ohm resistor was used, it would give the phase controls a little better head room to play with.

I installed a phase control on a CFS pay-out head. (it fit perfectly.) I have not tested it yet, hopefully I'll be able to do that in a few minutes.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 09:10 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I rememember years ago telling people there had to be such a resistor (or diode or other limiting device) for the reason I explained--without ever opening up a motor or looking at a schematic. I just knew something was required.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 10:06 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, the diode is used to give the motor some extra OOMPH! Those AD/DC motors love DC, even though it is not filtered. It is almost possible to put the motors like that in a run-away condition when run on DC. If, for some reason the diode shorts out, the motors won't be able to get out of their own way. I have had a couple of failures of those diodes.

It looks like my experiment is going to work with the phase control on the CFS platters. It ran nice and smooth, but I could not complete the test of running a movie with it. I was jazzing around with the little potentiomenter, and I might have popped the LED. In addition to that, the cheap crimp jobs of the wires on the pin plugs broke. Those were factory crimps - only about two three strands of the wire were actually crimped and the rest of the strands were busted. Nice quality ....but it didn't come from Strong International.

That specific brain died while running a movie once....then it was put in the brain repository. Now I know why....


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 11:11 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I doubt half wave rectification is going to add any oomph as it's effectively like cutting the voltage in half. But that's for both modes.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-02-2002 11:45 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Believe me, Steve...it does....I am talking about series-wound motors.

I used that trick on desoldering vacuum pumps and other equipment using ad/dc series wound motors while I was in the navy.



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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-03-2002 02:36 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK back on subject here:

I do believe this is perhaps a payout/brain problem... more specifically the spring that returns the payout arm. Perhaps it is just too stiff since it is so new. The film needs to tug just a bit harder to make the platter turn at the right speed, and when it does (after wrapping about 3/4 of the way around the brain) it unwraps and the payout arm moves back a touch. Then the cycle repeats again and again. The elevator does not move at all during this. All I know is that the Strong phase control A-3's at my old theater that is now over 10 years old never had problems like this. In fact I think we only had to replace one brain due to a bad LED the entire time I was there.

I'd rather spin both decks by hand myself than have a microswitch system. Hey waitaminute that's actually happened with a microswitch system!


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-03-2002 01:18 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That spring is like a hair-trigger, and I don't think that is the cause. More than likely, the pay-out heads might have a little Poly-Grip or a rock in the pay-out arm bearings.



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