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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » How to stretch the width of a 1.85 : 1 image ? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: How to stretch the width of a 1.85 : 1 image ?
Kamakshipalya Dhananjay
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Bangalore, India
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-06-2002 09:22 AM      Profile for Kamakshipalya Dhananjay   Email Kamakshipalya Dhananjay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My theatre in INDIA is no different from others. India produces more than 1023 films each year. Not one of it in 1.85 : 1 except when the movie is produced for outside INDIA.

My theatre is a single screen with 1152 seats. There is a balcony with 362 seats and 790 seats below it.

My screen size is :
Width - 51.6 Feet (Not possible to stretch further)
Height - 21.5 Feet (Not possible to stretch further)

Most theatres in INDIA refuse to play 1.85 : 1 format films. Obviously because 100 % of Indian theatres are designed keeping in mind only the 2.39 : 1 format film.

But then, with my theatre playing more and more AMERICAN films and with DISNEY and SONY mostly releasing most of their films in 1.85 : 1 format, I wonder if it is possible to stretch the width of the image from a 1.85 : 1 print without significantly distorting the image characteristics.

Screen coverage on a 1.85 : 1 print is as under :

WIDTH - 39.75 Feet
Height - 21.50 Feet

So, I want to know if I can extend the 39.75 feet to cover my complete screen width.

I have 3 Westrex projectors. I use SANKOR lens which as a focal length of 85 mm. We have currently ordered the new SCHNEIDER SUPER CINELUX INTEGRATED ANAMORPHIC lens for our projectors.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 08-06-2002 09:38 AM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamakshipalya, welcome to Film-Tech!

If you literally want to "stretch" your image using an anamorphic lens, then I would say that there will not be any way to avoid distortion.

I can think of two potentially viable options off the top of my head: figure out a way to hang additional masking on the sides to crop the screen for proper 1.85 presentation, or just run the 1.85 image within the scope image area. Obviously, the first option is the better of the two, but I think that it is most important to maintain the "flat" image and try to show the film as close as possible to the intended aspect ratio.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-06-2002 09:48 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NO! NO! NO! It is your job to present the movie as it was intended, not to alter it to fit your screen. To do what you want would require showing cropping the height of the picture to acheive the Scope aspect ratio and enlarging the remainder so as to fill both the height and width of your screen. This would be horrible as you would be showing only about 77% of the height of the picture. There are some very bad theatres that attempt to show all films to about 2:1, cropping 1.85 films vertically and Scope films horizontally. That is bad enough and what you propose is far worse. (We won't even discuss the idea of literally stretching the picture horizontally.)

What you should do is arrange to have black masking curtains that can be moved in at each side of the screen to hide the portion that is not used when running 1.85. While you're at it they should have the capacity to move in even farther so you can project the 1.66 aspect ratio should the need arise. Perhaps even for 1.37. All films would be projected with the same image height and only the width changes.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 08-06-2002 10:05 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamakshipalya,
going to 2/1 for 43 feet with an additional 12% loss of light and lower image quality is the result. Using a variable prism adapter on the front of the lens to stretch the image would give unpleascent distorsion in the picture ( watch your leading stars gain 100 pounds in girth ) and major light loss. Since many Indian cinemas do not use screen masking and the size of your house, I understand why the desire for a larger image other than changing your screen to a taller one ( if conditions permit ) with a 28 foot height to properly display the 1.85 image.....again if your lamphouse can handle this size image since I assume you are on carbon.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-06-2002 11:20 AM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was actually in a horrible theatre back in the early 70's in Oakland, my FIRST triplex, where the theatre had full scope screens, but ran flat films to fill the scope screen. The result was terrible. It was the original Jack London Square cinemas not to be confused with Signature's theatres there today. There was also a twin in oakland at the Rockland (or rOCKRIDGE) shopping center that used trhe correct ratio for The Exorcist in thetare 1. Theatre 2, however, showed it in a scope ratio (very narrow theatre, I think no more than 6 seats per row. the changeover house used angled projectors with MIRRORS because the room wasn't wide enough to use dead-on projection.

The other solution that was used in Bakersfield was to run flat cartoons in scope if the feature was in scope. On theplus side, the pre-wide screen cartoons could be seen with all their image intyact (instead of beibng cropped to 1.85). The negative was that you had a badly DISTORTED image.

NEITHER SOLUTION WORKS! I demand OAR on my DVD's AND at the movies.

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 08-06-2002 02:41 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul Thompson likes to watch all Road Runner cartoons in scope. I can agree the results are hilarious.

Josh

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Rick Sanjurjo
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 08-06-2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Rick Sanjurjo   Email Rick Sanjurjo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamakshipalya,

Stretching the image would be a bad idea as others have said it would distort the image significantly. The best thing to do would be to add side masking and make the screen smaller for 1:85 so that image looks like it fits the whole screen.Maskings are common in most US theaters.

Rick

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-06-2002 06:48 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We want pictures of your theatre!!!! (Well, I do at least.)

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Kamakshipalya Dhananjay
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Bangalore, India
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-07-2002 12:37 AM      Profile for Kamakshipalya Dhananjay   Email Kamakshipalya Dhananjay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For as many years we can remember, we have run 1.85 : 1 prints without enlarging the same to fit the width of the screen. All the while, audience always complain about 1.85 : 1 image area and so, we used to wonder if there is a way around it.

We did play SPIDERMAN and are currently playing MEN IN BLACK-2. A remarkable feature about the trailers for both these films was that they were presented not in 1.85 : 1 format but some other that they looked great with an anamorphic lens.

For all 2.39 : 1 prints, we use a back lens and a front lens attachment. For all 1.85 : 1 prints, we use a single (but a separate and distinct from that used for 2.39 : 1) back lens.

The trailers of SPIDERMAN and MIB-2 were played out on 2.39 : 1 lens and they looked more impressive than even regular 2.39 : 1 trailers like MINORITY REPORT or AUSTIN POWERS.

So, how was this done at all ? I believe the answer to this question could help thousands upon thousands of movie theatres in INDIA.

To the question whether my projectors are run on carbon, the answer if yes. We always wanted to change over to XENON but an unique feature in INDIAN theatres is that prints are shifted between theatres.

To illustrate, the city of BANGALORE has 135 single screen theatres. There are no multiplexes here. Yet. MIB-2 plays at 15 different theatres with 6 prints. Each theatre is allowed to screen only a maximum of 4 shows in a day under the Law.

So, if my theatre starts a show at 1.30, another theatre which starts at 3.00 will receive REEL 1 and 2 from me and so on..

However, with assurances from distributors these days that I will be given a separate print for all future films, I am planning to go in for a KINOTON FP 30 E with a XENON 5000 watts projector ( 2 numbers)

I also forgot to mention that our screen is curved and the measurement of this curve is quite like the RECOMMENDED type (so described in the SCHNEIDER LENS SELECTION SOFTWARE).

That some doubts were expressed if XENON projectors are suitable for screens of my size, will somebody please clarify if XENON projectors are not suitable for larger screens.

There are theatres in BANGALORE with screen sizes like 72 or 80 feet in width and featuring 1400 or more seats. They too want to switch over to XENON after they see I do it. FYI, there are no XENON projectors anywhere in my STATE. BANGALORE population - 7.5 million. STATE POPULATION - 50.5 million.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 08-07-2002 12:45 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When do you plan to install the Kinoton equipment and is Monee or Vikas doing the project? You should be pleased with the results.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Alex Grasic
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 08-07-2002 03:14 AM      Profile for Alex Grasic   Email Alex Grasic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most of the trailers for Spiderman and MIB2 were already cropped on a flat lense to reflect the scope ratio. When I played most of these trailers on screen here at my theatre, you would see the black bands across the top and bottom. That is probably why it turned out properly on your screen!!

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1424
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-07-2002 04:50 AM      Profile for Carl Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Carl Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
but spiderman and mib2 are flat films, not scope, so there would be no reason for the trailers to be matted down to a scope ratio. indeed, we played the mib2 trailer in 1.66 (or so) and it filled the frame. Kamakshipalya must have played scope versions of the trailers with the image cropped and optically squished to look right through the scope lens. and since no prints of these flat films would ever be struck this way (or do they do this in india?) it wouldn't help in solving the original problem of filling the screen with a flat film. which of course he should not do.

when did india stop producing flat films? all the satyajit ray films i've seen are flat, and he worked into the 90's (although the most recent one i've seen is from the 70's). i suppose ray's films were intended for the international market though, unlike most bollywood product.

i saw lagaan not too long ago, and yes, it is scope. interestingly, it had no cue marks, even though most indian theaters, as we just learned, run changeover.

carl

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-07-2002 09:30 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Jacey cinema circuit, with mostly old small News Theatre halls in London, became solely Cartoon Theatres, running 1 hour shows, on the demise of the newsreels. The flat cartoon reels would be stretched to 2.35 scope by using the anamorphic lens with the wide ratio lens, with the Kalee Varamorph, adjusted to a x 1.5 squeeze.

When the supply of cartoons dried up, the cinemas ran for a few years on single and double bill re-runs, continental and sex exploitation movies.

On the closure of the Jacey, Trafalgar Square, all the seats and equipment went to the Regal Cranleigh. The seats were later specialist refurbished. I also took the Italian Fedi projectors with RCA sound from the closed Jacey, Leicester Square, and sold them to a cinema in Africa. I also managed to sell 350 old seats to a cinema in Iceland.



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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-07-2002 09:40 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The print should be projected at the aspect ratio intended by the filmmakers:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/spring2001.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-07-2002 10:38 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What JP said.

The best theater in Eugene in terms of presentation is house #3 at Regal Cinema World 8. This is a decent-sized room: 480 seats. But the screen is quite small. I've eyeballed it at 24 feet flat, 30 feet scope (common-height, movable side masking). When it's masked for flat, I've heard customers comment that "the screen is too small here". Well, duh, sit a little closer and the screen will look larger. Actually, the relatively small size of the screen really helps improve 35mm image quality. Sharpness and detail can be amazingly good. "Signs" was extraordinarily sharp on that 24' screen. I also saw "Signs" on a 36-foot common-width screen (movable top masking) and the image quality definitely suffered in comparison.

Anyway, my point is that if Regal suddenly decided to stretch the flat image out to make it "bigger" on that screen, it would be an unforgivable abomination. I would never go there again if they did something like that. Not saying they would ever do it, in fact I'm sure they wouldn't. But they could, and the result would be completely unacceptable.



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