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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Strong CPA-10 Automation Problem - A little bit of Crazyness (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Strong CPA-10 Automation Problem - A little bit of Crazyness
Jean-Michel Grin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 222
From: Geneva & Lausanne, Switzerland
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 07-15-2002 04:15 AM      Profile for Jean-Michel Grin   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Michel Grin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi All

Am Firs I will beg your pardon for my weak English, bum I’m sure that you can help me for the problem that I have with my Strong CPA-10 Automation systems.

Actually we have two multiplexes they use X-90 console and one Super Highlight all fitted with CPA-10 Automation. They all Work fine. But in our second Multiplex (most recent) all consoles are X-90, and anytime when we switch on the xenon Lamp, the CPA-10 will reboot !
In a Another single-screen theater, we got a Super Highlight II console with a Super reactance rectifier the problem is worst: When the lamp is ignited the CPA-10 reboot and at the intermission when the rectifier is switched off, the CPA-10 Restart the show immediately ! Funny isn’t ?
Of course we have been tried all solution from Strong: Moving away the igniter from the automation cable duct, Putting a new earth link between the Lamphouse and the main earth wire, plugged the CPA-10 main line in a different wall outlet, adding a RF suppression filter on the main line of the CPA-10, Replaced the RF capacitor at the anode termination post, Checked the earth termination on each console and electrical panels. But the problem still the same, especially when the xenon Lamp is Old. The only way to solve this problem for the moment is to let the xenon burning all the day ! but the Changeover Douser plate don’t like it and every 6 month we have to replace them !!
If Someone in this forum has the same problems, and found a solution, please tell me what can I do ? That will be very nice

Best regards,

Jean-Michel Grin – Europlex Cinemas (Switzerland)

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-15-2002 05:15 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As well as the capacitor at the anode termination post, there are some others behind the lamphouse on the X90. We had exactly this problem with exactly this equipment. Strong sent us a load of capacitors and a modification to carry out, I can't remember the details, but it involved removing factory fitted caps behind the lamphouse and adding the ones they sent. (They were bright orange in colour).

Sorry to be so vauge, but it was a while ago. Maybe Pat Moore can help on here?

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-15-2002 10:00 AM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have had similar problems with these automations in Strong Highlight consoles. Interestingly enough the units using 2K bulbs seldom gave problems but the 3K-equipped units were very troublesome, especially, as you say, when the bulbs got older.

We have tried line filters on the line feeding the automation, but to no real advantage.

At one point, the projectionists resorted to shutting off the automation before turning on the xenon lamp, then turning the automation back on. Once the show was running,they placed the manual lamp switch back to the OFF position. Of course this defeats the advantage of the automatic CLOCK-start function of the CPA-10.

I suppose it really comes down to keeping that ignition pulse as short as possible. If you are getting a long ignition pulse instead of a series of short ones, you may wish to try changing the 555 I.C. on the auto-ignition board, as well as perhaps beefing up the rectifier capacitors to give you a higher available starting current.

Another possible solution that I never got around to trying was to replace the ignitors with the newer type used by Strong which are powered from the D.C. from the rectifier. Our experience with these ignitors has been that these usually work first time, every time with an almost inaudible strike length.

Good luck.


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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 07-15-2002 08:55 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jean-Michel;

The CPA-10 can be troublesome, as it was never quite armor-plated against that 30-40,000 Volt ignition pulse a foot or so away from the computer.

The best way to troubleshoot I've found is to disconnect, one-by-one, the CPA-10 interfaces to the outside world. You will have to go through the manual as I don't remember what plug does what functions, as I am now in Thailand for a little business. Example: there is a single plug that handles all the dimmer connections. Unplug that from the main board of the CPA-10 and then light the xenon. If the system reboots, the problem is somewhere else. Do that with each plug until you find the one (or two) that does not make the CPA-10 reset. Refer to the manual to find what connections are handled with that plug and cable.

A common problem I used to find was with the failsafe. It's cable was too close to the positive DC lead of the console, so it picked up everything that happened and knocked out the automation. Once you find the culprit, isolate that component or cable as you've been trying.

You might also add a ceramic disc capacitor, very high voltage (such as .01mfd, 1kv)from the positve bulb connection to ground. Make this connection as close to the bulb as possible -- right at the positive feed-through where the bulb cable is connected. That might help as well.

Another trick -- there are two can capacitors used in our xenon systems that isolate the DC circuit from ground. One is between negative and ground, the other between positive and ground. They then share a common wire to ground. Be sure that ground wire goes directly to the ground terminal of the console and not to somewhere on the chassis -- that ground may not be reliable. Alternate -- temporarily disconnect that ground wire from the capacitors and see if that effects the problem with the automation.

Good luck, have patience.

Pat


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Jean-Michel Grin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 222
From: Geneva & Lausanne, Switzerland
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 07-17-2002 03:56 PM      Profile for Jean-Michel Grin   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Michel Grin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks,

I Will try these tricks:

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 07-13-2006 12:15 AM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 1456 days since the last post.


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Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 07-13-2006 12:15 AM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello folks.

I'm pretty sure this is entirely related to the power coming into the unit or by the field generated by the lamphouse igniter but I thought I'd see if I'm not barking up the wrong tree here.

We've got Strong Highlite consoles with CPA-10's in them and in our #1 house 9 times out of 10 at power up the CPA-10 complains of either a start times memory fault or program fault or occasionally both.
Other times upon striking the lamp the system will shut down and complain of a program fault.

Most recently as I'm stepping off the stage hosting a sold out show of Pirates I see the lens turret rotating. I run up to the booth and the automation not only "forgot" to bring the lights down it also forgot which lens to use!
Reprogrammed it from scratch and we're fine, but I'd like to prevent that kind of stupid misshap in the future.

Any ideas I should try?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-13-2006 06:44 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When you get a memory fault of any kind...replace the battery (it is the kind that has leads coming off the ends (not a conventional drug store battery). If the battery is changed while the power is on, you won't loose any settings.

The other likely culprit is the power supply for the CPA-10

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 07-13-2006 09:16 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The memory litimum battery is good for around five years; we generally replaced it with one of a larger value. We had many fixes ( power supplies, cabling shielding, chassis shielding, wire jumpers on main board, ferrites et cetera ).....Eprad Ultimation and CPA series where state of the art 20 years ago but more heartache compared to Pennywise and Component Engineering [Cool]

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Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 07-15-2006 01:49 AM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh don't get me wrong. I love CE automations. I consider myself somewhat of a TA-10 guru, I love those things to death.
These CPA-10's I'm stuck with are hell!

I'll check the batter out.
Also, and this is kind of a dumb one, can this automation be programmed to start when it hits a cue?
I.E. projectionist press the go button, automation waits for a cue, then times out and opens the douser, switches sound, etc.

In my mind I'm seeing it as an extra cue as the first step of the program, is this correct?
Thanks!

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 07-15-2006 03:13 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Dominic Espinosa
I.E. projectionist press the go button, automation waits for a cue, then times out and opens the douser, switches sound, etc.


You could go into the supervisory and change the changeover value to be longer than the default 7 secs.. Thus, when you press the RUN, the dowser will open a lot longer.

quote: Dominic Espinosa
In my mind I'm seeing it as an extra cue as the first step of the program, is this correct?

When you press the start button, that is cue "Zero" and when the dowser opens, that is cue "One". as mentioned above, you can prob set the changeover delay to a lot longer interval...to lengthen the cue "ZERO" delay.

I have 18 of these CPA-10 units that I have to watch over.. If one knows how to do "batch-line" command editing, you can make these units work like clockwork.. In which I have done.

These 18 units that I take care of,run absolutely perfect - only once in a while, one program loses it's settings, but with the other program being intact, I just copy the one program to the other and change the lens factor settings since I also have double movable maskings.

But, they are far from being durable at times... I've had to do complete changeouts of automations due to some CPU processing that simply will do some odd stuff - even with new batteries installed.

It takes a person who really knows all about these units to stay on top of them ... that person has to be a computer geek to really know what makes these units tick..

quote: Steve Guttag
The other likely culprit is the power supply for the CPA-10

..and that is the absolute truth..swapped out PS a few times...to clear up crazy headaches that these units can produce.
Mine are installed in X-90 units.

-Monte

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Jean-Michel Grin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 222
From: Geneva & Lausanne, Switzerland
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 07-15-2006 05:22 PM      Profile for Jean-Michel Grin   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Michel Grin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Guys !

I'm so surprised to see that my first post on film-tech forum couls came back on the scene.
In our multiplexes, where we had problems with the CPA-10 at the xenon ingnition, I tried a thing. By putting capacitors in a "crosswork" circuit, we solved on part of the problem.
Next time i could give You the schematics to do the same rescue.

Best regards,

JMG

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Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 07-15-2006 08:04 PM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Definitely the battery in our #1 house. This morning it did the same thing again, flopped the lens over to flat and didn't do anything.
Checked the program after the show got out and what do you know, 0 instructions!

Now I have another problem. Our #2 house won't run the lamp.
We had started the show and it stopped at the end of the trailer pack saying "missed cues 1, 2". So I figured there was something else wrong and started it manually.
Figured I'd start trouble shooting the automation starting with power cycling it. I hit the power button and the lamp shuts down. Motor, exciter, etc. all stay running.
Flip the switch on the automation and nothing.
The lamp will strike if you take it out of auto and flip the switch. On the lamphouse of course, not the automation.
I don't know these automations well at all but would I be correct in assuming there's a relay that's not closing when you flip the switch or hit the start button on the automation?
Or is it something else entirely?

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Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 07-16-2006 02:39 AM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Jean-Michel Grin
I'm so surprised to see that my first post on film-tech forum couls came back on the scene.
Well, that's the beauty of this forum, it doesn't erase posts automatically (that's the admins job) so others can search for the questions that have already been answered instead of cluttering it with the same question 10 times causing the regulars to loose interest. Though that probably still happens quite a bit [Wink]

Back to the topic at hand.
I felt dumb when I realised what happened. Old sloppy connector on the back of the lamp switch just fell off. It fit pretty loose anyway so I crimped it a bit with some pliers and what do you know? It works!
Lesson learned? Always check the simple stuff.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
When you press the start button, that is cue "Zero" and when the dowser opens, that is cue "One". as mentioned above, you can prob set the changeover delay to a lot longer interval...to lengthen the cue "ZERO" delay.
Well, the reason I bring it up is so that when the operator finishes threading and wants to start the show he or she wouldn't have to first motor it up to the starting position and then hit the go button.
Cueing the leader would mean it would start at exactly the right spot every time no matter how much leader the operator used during threading and there's no worry of the operator leaving the motor on by mistake or any other mishaps.

Wouldn't it be just as simple to make cue 1 the lights down, douser open, all that jazz cue, cue 2 lights up and cue 3 intermission?
It seems to me I saw something like that somewhere else but I think they were runing CNA-100's, I'm not really sure though.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 07-16-2006 03:54 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Dominic Espinosa
We had started the show and it stopped at the end of the trailer pack saying "missed cues 1, 2". So I figured there was something else wrong and started it manually.

What happened here is that the system didn't recoginize any cues due to that the "CUE LEARN" wasn't turned on.

The failsafe/cue reader is completly turned off when "CUE LEARN" is turned off. You have to go into the supevisory and change your "CUE LEARN" settings.

I run mine on "manual" thus, when the "CUE LEARN" button is pressed, a "L" is displayed to the right on the LCD panel.

I tell my booth people to make sure that the "CUE LEARN" is engaged with the "L" display. Otherwise, the "missed cues 1,2, etc" flag will appear - meaning that the system couldn't learn any cue positions on the film, causing the "Shutdown Delay" settings to engage, causing the automation to shut down the console at the prescribed timed settings which is assigned to the "Shutdown Delay" in the Program settings.

quote:
1- Well, the reason I bring it up is so that when the operator finishes threading and wants to start the show he or she wouldn't have to first motor it up to the starting position and then hit the go button.
Cueing the leader would mean it would start at exactly the right spot every time no matter how much leader the operator used during threading and there's no worry of the operator leaving the motor on by mistake or any other mishaps.

2-Wouldn't it be just as simple to make cue 1 the lights down, douser open, all that jazz cue, cue 2 lights up and cue 3 intermission?
It seems to me I saw something like that somewhere else but I think they were runing CNA-100's, I'm not really sure though.

Reply on 1- : In your supervisory settings, have the sound changeover time factor set to 7 seconds. (which is the default settings from the time the RUN button is pushed, till the dowser opens). You can do two things: Either change the time factor to 5 seconds-(and if you have countdown leader, have the booth people lace the leader to where the area between "8' and "7" is in the framebox when threading. This will let the leader run through just as the dowser opens up - making a good opening presentaion..)

Or, leave the factor at 7 seconds, and if (a) - a countdown leader, have the number "11" in the framebox, OR,(b) - if using a regular frameline leader, measure out the required seconds on the leader and mark the leader to where it should be framed at - to ensure the 7 seconds from RUN button to dowser open when the leader has just passed the aperture opening..

On the second reply: you can email me your operational procedures and I could write you a Batch Line command list to insert in your two programs - with instructions on how to clear out all of the programs and start anew - is what I had to do with these 18 CPA-10 units..

CNA-100's are basically just like the CPA-10's, only difference is that it's tons user friendly. Only thing that I absolutely DO hate on the CNA-100's is that damned Cue Fault override button - the grey one. So many people, purposely and accidently press that and when it's engaged, it shuts down the failsafes completely. Thus, the machine and lamp stays on...and you don't know how many times I've replaced dowser blades do to this....GRRR...!!

-Monte

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