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Author Topic: Problem with Simplex E7
Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 07-12-2002 12:39 PM      Profile for Pete Lawrence   Email Pete Lawrence   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm having a problem with a pair of Simplex E7 heads in a home screening room. It appears that the film is not running flat in the film trap. This shows up as the picture being out of focus in the center and in focus at the edges. Like it is slightly bowed out in the middle. However, if I lay a piece of film between the aperture shoe guides there is a slight clearance and the lateral guide is lined up with the edge of the shoe guide. Nothing is binding against the film edges.

There were some wear spots on the trap parts and after 50 years it was time. I have replaced the aperture shoes and aperture shoe guides on the film traps. The pressure pads on the door/gate look in good shape and haven't been replaced. The focus problem was also there with the original parts which is what prompted the replacement in the first place.
I thought I had it solved after a few adjustments to the door/gate lateral position but when a splice went through it jumped out of focus again.

There are no adjustments available on the trap except the position of the lateral guide rollers. The aperture shoes and aperture shoe guides are aligned with pins.

Just for the hell of it I assembled one leaving out the side aperture shoe guides (Film Trap parts G-249 & G-250). Seems to work fine. Focus is good across the screen. However, I'm reluctant to permanently leave these parts out. I'm sure they were in there for some reason.

Have I missed something here? Any thoughts, oh keepers of the ancient knowledge?

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-12-2002 04:45 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are you having the problems with both machines?

If not, swap the major gate parts and see if the problem follows.

Sounds like a mis-alignment of some sort, or uneven tension of the pressure pads. Take a look at the trap. Are some of the pressure pads clogged on one side so they don't seat properly or supply an even pressure to both edges of the film?

If the problem is in both machines, it could be the projection lens. What is the lens manufacturer, and what are the lens f-stops and focal lenghts?

Also, is your projection lamp properly focused and not creating a "hot spot"?


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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 07-12-2002 06:25 PM      Profile for Pete Lawrence   Email Pete Lawrence   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Both machines behave about the same. I agree it may be a mis-alignment somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Everything is real clean. Pressure pads (shoes) look even with no sticking. Tension is at minimum. The Lenses are ISCO Ultra Star and Ultra MC, but I rule out the lens since focus is sharp edge to edge if I leave out the side aperture shoe guides. I believe they are called studio guides on a Century C. The Simplex Standard and Super did not have these. They were "new" with the E7 design. Light on the screen is even with no evident hot spots. Lamps are ORC M1000's.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-12-2002 10:13 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Check with a trap alignment tool that the rails line up with the intermitent sprocket

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-12-2002 10:23 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmmmm.......

Flat or scope? What's your picture size? How long of a throw do you have? (These are the most important question I have right now.) What is your lens size?

If this focus problem is with a Scope lens, it could be out of the range of astigmatism correction....

I find it a little odd that your problem exists in both machines. To me, that is unlikely, but I will admit it is possible.

Other that that, I have no other ideas at this time. Maybe some of the old-timers could be of more help.

Check your alignment as Gordon suggests. You might find something.

I presently have a film trap from an E-7 sitting in my lap right now, and I don't really see anything that could cause your problem, unless the lateral film guide roller is squished and frozen. That would cause excessive cupping of the film. Is the inboard flange free, and does it snap back when you push it laterally and let it go? If it does not budge when you try to push it laterally, it is crudded up.

It has been my experience that sometimes you have to punch the dowel pins in on one side (preferably outboard side) and manually adjust the guide. Apparently through the years, the hole for the guide dowels got misplaced due to drilling errors. The Ballentyne "75" gate gauge will not fit in mine, but it works well with Brenkerts, Simplex XL's, and naturally, the Ballentyne Pro-35.

What to use as a gauge to be accurate is a good question, but I have used a hunk of new polyester stock quite successfully.


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Bob Koch
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 183
From: williams ca
Registered: Nov 2001


 - posted 07-13-2002 12:41 AM      Profile for Bob Koch   Email Bob Koch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Look at the side guides[studio guides] with a magnifier. On the aperture plate side of the trap I`m sure you will find a very small sharp groove worn there. Put in new guides or hone the existing ones and this problem should disappear.

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Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-15-2002 03:19 AM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The E-7 intermittent sprocket can't be moved so everything needs to align with it. First make sure the film trap seats properly against the mainframe. I agree a film trap gauge or remove the gate and pull a piece of film tight around the int. sprocket chacking how it ligns up with the guide rollers. Make sure the rollers are turning freely and the inboard one moves in and out on the shaft. Also make sure the roller assembly is not loose. Do check the studio guides for groves in them. The fixed roller should be about .003 in from the outboard guide. The studio guides were designed to keep side sway to a minimum. If necessary runniong without one or both will not hurt the machine. Best of luck.

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 07-15-2002 04:21 AM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FYI to everyone
Listen to Mr. Prather
This man rebuilt a couple of Simplex XLs for us at the Varsity Theatre in Seattle several years ago and they are still running like swiss watches.
Thank you Dick, you are a genius.

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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 07-15-2002 09:05 PM      Profile for Pete Lawrence   Email Pete Lawrence   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all the replys. As I don't have a film trap gauge, I have to rely on a piece of film (polyester PA35). All looks good with the sprocket alignment as far as I can see. The outboard lateral guide roller spin freely but without any end play. The spring action on the inboard one is good also. I have several complete traps and some new studio guides that I just recently got from Wolk. I think the bottom of the barrel is about to be reached on these parts, at least at Wolk. The quality leaves something to be desired. Anyway, with some combinations of guides the spacing between them is about .006" narrower than the width of the film. It forces a bow out in the middle! Picking a pair of guides that has a little free play, (.010") when a piece of film is layed on the trap seems to work ok.

Dick, that number of .003" for the fixed roller offset is very welcome, thank you. Can you tell me what the nominal spacing should be between the guides? I can get a couple of old pairs that are tight dressed a little on a surface grinder, but I don't know what number to shoot for.

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Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-16-2002 03:06 AM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pete,
I use two gauges for E-7 and XL traps. My LaVezzi gauge is 1.376 wide with no guide roller offset and can be used for c/s or vkf sprockets. They do sell one but it is set up for vkf sprockets only. The other guage is an old hand made Simplex factory gauge for XL's which runs from 1.380 on top to 1.375 on the bottom with the guide roller offset. I would suggest using 1.380 between the studio guides. I have had some problems with holes not drilled correctly in studio guides and you can file the locating pins to move them. The screw holes have some play.
Dick

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-16-2002 03:52 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dick, I have an E-7 movement with a standard VKF sprocket installed. The sprocket is not "pinned" like some of the Super or old Century movements are.

I think some of these movements have enough "slop" in the starwheel shaft sprocket bolt hole to adjust the lateral position of the sprocket by a .00* inches or so.

Since I never had a gate gauge to fit the E-7 trap, I never tried it. I just aligned them with the sprocket shoe when I replaced some of them. It seemed to work out OK. But I do know it has a little slop to play with.

I don't think his problem is with the sprocket alignment. I think it is the guides are just too close together. Your suggestion about what to do about the locating holes on the guides will probably cure his problem. Generally, I just drove those pins flush with the rails. Saves alot of hassle screwing around with a file.

And, I learned something about the gauge dimensions from you. I did not know about the offset. Thank you.

Paul



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Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-16-2002 06:08 PM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,
E-7's were the first to use the nut & bolt sprocket that we use today. The problem is that the sprocket has a ridge on both ends that is used to set starshaft end play. LaVezzi #416TL31B-LA for VKF. A sprocket without the ridge won't work. The same method is used on the Standard, Super, and Century C when you update to a 5/15" star. This leaves the sprocket in a fixed position and the trap rollers need to be set up to the sprocket. Pushing the pins is another way to solve the problem. I agree that pete is having the film pinched by not enough clearance in the studio guides. I think once the proper clearance is reached he should have a very stable picture. E-7's put out one of the most steady picture, even when shot, I have seen and make an excellent home machine. I ran lots of them years ago. One either loved or hated them.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-16-2002 08:51 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the info, Dick. Appreciate it.

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John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-18-2002 12:26 AM      Profile for John Eickhof   Author's Homepage   Email John Eickhof   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Dick!!! Nice to see you have joined us!!! I have had problems with the last few years of Wolk guides, I end up placing them on the surface grinder and removing about .0015" then they seem to work just fine. I have also received sets of the shoes that are different thickneses!! Also remedied with the surface grinder!! I would advise that he checks the flatness of the film trap door shoes also. I have seen these warped fresh out of the wolk box and usually they 'chatter' like hell!! Good luck!!

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

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