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Author Topic: Another Film Guard Success
Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-11-2002 12:23 PM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just thought I'd share something with the Forum...we got in a lovely dye transfer print of a 40 year old title which was runnable but sadly showing very noticeable "ribboning". I took a chance and applied a fairly liberal dose of Film Guard, tightly reverse wound the print, and several days later found that the ribboning had relaxed to the point where it was hardly noticeable. The fact that any minor surface blemishes had also disappeared was a lucky strike extra. Great work Film Guard.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-11-2002 12:30 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think many people would be surprised how much Filmguard relaxes acetate prints. Also acetate film seems to be able to absorb nearly unlimited amounts of Filmguard so it is not as risky putting lots and lots on. I had a very brittle acetate print not too long ago and Filmguard made it runable, when it otherwise would have broken every show.


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Sam Hunter
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 779
From: West Monroe, LA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 07-11-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Sam Hunter   Email Sam Hunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have tried using Film Renew on some prints of mine that had some curls in it and after soaking & tight winding for a couple of weeks I could tell any difference. Maybe I need to try Film Guard.


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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-11-2002 12:46 PM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam: No knocks on Film Renew, but it's a thin, volatile fluid which quickly dries on the print. I know you mentioned soaking, and I've done that too, but the way Film Guard stays on the print for an extended period it's a hell of a lot neater and seems to accomplish the job. Overall, I've cut way down on Film Renew and find that Film Guard does just as good or better for cleaning, and is much easier to use for base restoration.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-11-2002 07:40 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is Film Renew? Anyone got an MSDS?

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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-11-2002 10:56 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can second this. I have a 16mm IB Tech print that had so much curl that it wouldn't stay in focus as it ran through the gate. I applied a heavy coat of filmguard, and got the same result -- the print relaxed and now it runs flat with no focus problems.


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 07-12-2002 04:31 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Out of interest, I have quite a lot of 8mm home movie film that my father shot when I was just lad (1950's vintage). I have been reviewing some of the footage with a mind to transfering it to DVD. Some of the oldest stuff has a kind of tessellated cracking in the emulsion which is very visible in white areas. Now I believe Kodak 8mm film from that period was acetate. Is is possible or practical to apply FilmGuard to 8mm film, and if so would it help in this instance?

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-12-2002 05:03 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes and yes. I've done it many times with old home movies on standard 8, Super 8 and 16mm film (some from the 50s) and I think you will be genuinely amazed at the results.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-12-2002 06:08 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak home movie film has always been safety film. AFAIK, film from the 50's and 60's would be cellulose triacetate base. If the film was stored cool and dry and in air-permeable containers (e.g., boxes), it should be in good shape, except for slight shrinkage. If stored improperly (hot, humid, sealed containers), there may be the onset of "vinegar syndrome" where hydrolysis causes the base to degrade and release acetic acid vapor:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage1.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/vinegar.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml

Even if you transfer the film images to video for convenience, KEEP THE ORIGINAL FILMS! Stored properly, they will likely outlast the video, and can be transferred again when the next format of video arrives.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-12-2002 07:27 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The question on transfering to video is...what form for storage? I don't mind shelling out for a good telecine job to get it to a digital medium that exceeds the 8mm resolution, but I want the transfer to be something that will indeed freeze the quality. I don't think DVD will do it for me...I'm not "that" impressed by it.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 07-12-2002 08:09 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yes I agree, which format indeed. Similar problem with audio on magnetic tapes. At the moment there aren't too many choices for video material, unless you want to spend a small fortune. I mainly want the DVDs so family and relatives can watch them without the danger of further damage to the films. Also you can skip through the really boring stuff which you cannot do when projecting film. So yes John, I do intend to keep the original films and store them as best I can. Thanks for the tips in that regard.

So what is the best way to apply FilmGuard to 8mm stock?

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-12-2002 08:20 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Probably not the topic for this forum, but I share the frustration of which format to use for transfer. I've got a load of 16mm silent stuff from the '30's-'50's which my father shot, including some amazingly good early Kodachromes, but I'm afraid his years of "attic storage" have begun to manifest themselves in the form of VS on some, including a 1938 trip to Europe (including Germany) which has some historical significance. I've got some time on these, but not forever sadly. They're not worth a fortune, but some are approaching the point where I won't have a second chance. Troubling.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-12-2002 12:02 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, I agree that DVD or even quick time is fine for distribution to family members. But what I want to find is a good medium to get them in the digital domain. Then as technology marches on, rather than go back to the telecine, convert from today's digital medium to tomorrow's.

I would NEVER think of throwing out the films so long as they are runable. As to Kodachrome looking good after the many decades...you bet! That was an exceptionally designed film.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-12-2002 01:55 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quick point: as far as I know, all camera films (with the exception of some high-speed and special military applications) are on acetate- or nitrate-base stock. This applies to all formats (8mm->65mm) through to the present day. ESTAR-base stock is only for intermediates, separations, and some (mostly recent) prints (and the aforementioned special-purpose stocks).

As for video format, I'd be interested in this as well. Hopefully there is someone here who is familiar with the current state of 'rust' (as Josh would call it).

I do know that compressed digital formats (DVD, DV tape, Digital Betacam, etc.) are generally frowned upon by archivists. I have had some of my attempts at 16mm filmmaking transferred to Beta SP and dubbed to 1" tape for duplication to VHS; it's a great format and is ubiquitous in the professional world, but has recently been end-of-lifed by Sony and thus may not be the best long-term choice for storage. Apparently 1" C-type is almost dead now in the television world and it was the major broadcast format through most of the 1980s (and it's a better master for dubs than Beta SP).

Personally, I'm not too worried, since I know that 16mm original negative (and prints) will outlast any of today's video formats, but I agree that it's a good idea to get a high-quality video master as well.


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Sam Hunter
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 779
From: West Monroe, LA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 07-12-2002 02:58 PM      Profile for Sam Hunter   Email Sam Hunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Brad,
How bout sending me a sample?
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