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Author Topic: Was there an Intermission in....
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-24-2002 10:46 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We're running FANTASIA (original 1939) in the park this summer and I seem to recall someone once telling me that in the original presentation had an intermission just before the segment that starts with the orchestra coming back onto the stage. Can anyone verify this? Has anyone ever seen an INTERMISSION frame for this film?

I've booked this at least 4 different times over the years (each one requiring a fight with Phil Barlow -- you remember Phil -- to be "allowed to book it). Each booking was with almost as many print types (mono IBTec, that horrid anamorphic mag version, mono Eastman, and the 50th Anniversary release - Dolby SR). None of these had an intermisison, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one in the original release (how many roadshow titles are re-released without the original intermissions?!), especially since the whole Fantasia concept was that it was supposed to be a "concert."

Anyone having any credible info, give a shout.

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Bill Carter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 162
From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-24-2002 11:32 AM      Profile for Bill Carter   Email Bill Carter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was an intermission in that spot in the original release. The intermission has been restored in the recent DVD issue of Fantasia, but I'm not aware that there are any prints circulating of that version. I don't know that any prints have been struck since the anniversary reissue. There were also 70mm's of that reissue, anybody know if any of them are still circulating?

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 06-24-2002 12:09 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IIRC the intermission occurs right after the "soundtrack" character is introduced. I believe Deems Taylor's dialog there mentions it, something along the lines of "Before we go to intermission, we'd like to introduce..." Something like that.

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Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 06-24-2002 01:34 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Whats the running length?

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-24-2002 02:08 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Los Angeles County Museum of Art ran this "new" completed version of Fantasia during their big Disney animation tribute in February

From their web site:

.The most controversial animated feature ever made has always been Fantasia. Whatever its much-debated merits and faults, there is no doubt that many sections are among the most incredible visions ever presented on motion picture screens. Walt's original concept was to have "the concert feature" in continuous release by periodically updating it with new segments, but the film's initial failure negated that. The idea seems to have stuck, however, as Fantasia has been cut, enlarged, rescored, excerpted, censored, and anamorphized for numerous reissues and other purposes. This is the roadshow edition and includes more restored footage than has been seen since its 1940 release.
http://www.lacma.org


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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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 - posted 06-24-2002 06:19 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys. We definately will put in the intermission if that's the way it was originally released. I just wonder how much more material other than the intermission could have been restored since at the time of the 50th Anniversary theatrical release, they claimed that IT had restored all the excised material and was the COMPLETE film (sans intermission, but I guess they didn't count that). Disney was very serious about that 50th rerelease -- they even sent PA35 (RP40) test film out with the prints and big notices that it MUST be projected in 1.37 as well as the warning in big bold letters that it was NOT mono compatable and "under no circumstances should this film be played on a mono system." The even gave the TAP phone number if you had any questions about setting it up correctly.

Anyway, I have a feeling that the LA County Museum of Art's statement that it "restored" even more material might be just a tad bit more hype than it is fact.

Frank

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Sacramento, CA
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 - posted 06-25-2002 01:32 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The so-called "restored" DVD has all of Deems Taylor's narration re-done by someone else, reason being they could not find all of the original recordings so they decided to just re-do the entire thing!

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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 - posted 06-25-2002 07:01 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Geeez....video strikes again, eh? Now THAT's sure to make the purists' fall down and have a keniption fit!

Very surprising for Disney to have lost original material -- of all the studios, they seem to be the most conscientions with regard to their classics.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2002 07:14 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So are any current renditions using the original score? The DVD?

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Bill Carter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 162
From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-26-2002 06:38 PM      Profile for Bill Carter   Email Bill Carter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I recall, there was a substantial article in American Cinematographer at the time of Fantasia's Annniversary Reissue. According to that piece, by the late 50's, there was only one set of "Fantasound" equipment still around to playback the original 8-channel tracks. The setup was at Bell Laboratories, so the tracks were mixed down to stereo left/right and fed over copper telephone pairs to Disney in Burbank for rerecording. That's when the constant hum and occasional phase problems were built into the only original track element used since. In the anniversary reissue, they did a remarkable job of digitally cleaning up those tracks, but there are still audible problems, and in the audio CD release in particular it tended to sound a little thin, thanks to the heavy filtering used to get rid of the telephone hum.


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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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 - posted 06-27-2002 11:02 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

I don;t know for sure, but I can't imagine that Disney would settle for telco copper to make a master. Why not just go to Bell Labs with a mobile recording studio? We are talking Disney here -- when they did THE LION KING on three huge screens in Central Park one summer, they brought in enough equipment to outfit a dozen theatres and a rock and roll concert. Even if for some reason they wanted to go with land lines, Dolby had perfected a system that allowed CD quality transmission over telco copper years before. Or they could have used the PBS network transmission system -- in other words, there are lots of alternatives to conventional, noisy telco lines that would certainly provide hum-free recording for such an important and prestigious release as this was for Disney.

The phase shifting was a problem with the original masters. I am not sure if the original Fantasound recording system was a Westrex optical vane recorder that was modified to record 8 tracks plus the control onto a single strip of film, or if there were multiple film records running in interlock. If it were the latter, this certainly would account for the phase shift problem (which is abundant, hence Disney's strong admonition never to play the print in Mono). But I can tell you that I got to run the mag print sometime in the late 70s (it was released in that format in the 50s), and the phase shift distortion was definitely present; the mag format predated any of the Anniversary work that might have been done at Bell Labs.

I saw the version with the Irwin Kostal digital recording and found it very satisfying, if only they hadn't messed around with the order of the pieces and the removal of all the Deems Taylor sequences. The FANTASIA lovers went bizerk, and rightfully so. Adding a very well recorded new soundtrack was a great idea, especially since Kostal vowed that he would be true to Stokowski's interpretation, which I feel he did accomplish. You wind up with a superb sounding soundtrack to the classic animation. Disney and Stokowski were experimenting with untested technology from the beginning of this project. I think they would have approved updating the sound with new technology as it became available. Too bad they didn't re-record the soundtrack when Stokowski was still alive conduction the American Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall (like I suggested to Tippie Spirty [yes, that was his real name] head of Buena Vista here in New York). Had Disney made the re-recording with Stokowski when he was alive, it would have shut the purists up. Only if they also left the rest of the film alone, that is.

Just for my own enjoyment, I've married the Kostal digital recording (available on CD) with the Laserdisc picture, recording it onto SuperVHS tape. It's quite a thrill to see that incredible imagery and at the same time able to hear a robust symphonic performance in pristine digital stereo sound. It took awhile to get the timing right, but I got it so close it is indistinguishable from the original soundtrack.

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Sacramento, CA
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 - posted 06-27-2002 01:29 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have the 1982 re-recorded score on a Columbia House 8-track edition (2-tape set!) I believe it is the only 8-track tape to have the word "Digital" printed on it

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 06-27-2002 02:22 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since it's DIGITAL, that 8-track must sound fantastic, and never "hiccup" or jam in the player.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-27-2002 04:23 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank Angel wrote:

"Even if for some reason they wanted to go with land lines, Dolby had perfected a system that allowed CD quality transmission over telco copper years before."

This transfer technique was performed in the mid-50's when Disney was preparing for a SuperScope magnetic stereo release. Apparently the original optical stereo tracks had since been either lost or destroyed after this transfer, since the 50th Anniversary release used these 50's mag phone line transfers (which had also been used for the 70's 4-track mag re-release).


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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 06-27-2002 07:43 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is an article describing the original FANTASOUND system on the American Wide Screen Museum website. I believe it was written by the engineers who developed the system back then.
Michael

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