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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » new trailers with cyan s/track ? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: new trailers with cyan s/track ?
Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 06-18-2002 06:35 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I got a call today, asking if i had heard about some new trailers released in the eastern states of OZ, that had the new cyan soundtrack, they (?), couldn't run them as they only had an exiter lamp ! . This has caused a bit of a panic in perth and it seems that everyone wants their LED conversion done now just in case they get one of those trailers.
Is this a true story and we should hurry for conversion ?.
OR is this a rumour designed to drum up business/hurry the conversion rate?.
I do remember someone ( john pytlak?) saying they are going to wait for atleast a 75% take up of LED before the announcement of the change over ?.
It was a rushed call ( show coming down), so i didnt get much more info , except, i believe she said these trailers were on STAR WARS?.
Any info would be appreciated!.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-18-2002 07:55 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have not heard of any plans for an early launch of cyan dye track (even just for trailers) in Australia. Best estimate for beginning conversion is still early next year, starting with a few selected pictures. If one or more territories already has a high conversion rate to red LED readers, that may hasten the conversion in those territories.

Might those trailers have been ACCIDENTLY processed without analog soundtrack redevelopment? If so, the analog tracks would be either magenta dye only, or magenta+cyan (dark blue) dye, without any silver.
True cyan dye tracks would only have cyan dye (sky blue in color).
Analog Soundtrack Illustrations from Dolby Website

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 06-18-2002 10:02 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the reply john, your replies are always informative!.
I personally feel that this story MIGHT have some truth to it, but as what most often happens, the fact's get mis-quoted or blown out of proportion!.
The company i work for were going to wait until the last minute to convert, this story might be a blessing in disguise for us, as i would love to convert now and be ready for it when it does happen.
Still, if anyone has any facts on this particular story i would love to get the full story?.

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Bob Brown
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 06-18-2002 10:32 AM      Profile for Bob Brown   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John
Could you explain why they are switching to this format?

Thanks

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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 06-18-2002 10:36 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
to save john the time, there has been plenty of threads dedicated to this topic in the film handlers forum, all interesting reading.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-18-2002 01:11 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are some links about silverless analog soundtracks:
http://www.dyetracks.org/ (Contains links to many resources)
http://www.componentengineering.com/webdocs/whydyetracks.pdf
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/dyetrack.shtml
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.os.0012.reddye.html
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.ot.0012.ScanRev.html
http://www.uslinc.com/forum/index.htm
http://www.uslinc.com/products/led.htm

Here is the way silver is currently "redeveloped" in the analog soundtrack area:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_05.shtml

The process of applying a viscous bead of caustic developer to only the soundtrack area of the wet print film traveling at hundreds of metres per minute through a processing machine is a challenge! If the developer bleeds or splashes into the picture area, it leaves a "stain" of silver. If there are bubbles or variations in the developer, there may be "pops" and other noise in the sound. If the developer is not applied, you have no silver left in the soundtrack. Although these problems are relatively infrequent, they do occur, and are a significant source of print replacement and waste. There is also increasing regulation of hydroquinone (B&W developing agent) and silver in the environment, especially in some European countries. The fresh water required to "wash off" the soundtrack developer is a significant portion of the water used in film processing.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-18-2002 06:21 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps slightly OT, but I thought emulsion is water-soluable. If water is used to wash off the soundtrack developer, how does it not dissolve the emulsion??

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 06-18-2002 10:02 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken,

A final washing bath is used I believe to remove any traces of developer from the film. getting the print wet will cause the emulsion to swell, making it easier for absorbtion.

Also noted elseware on the site, and on Kodak's website, the Cyan tracks do have a lower signal to noise ratio(2 DB lower is the average) making it more dependant on Dolby SR noise reduction.

Why of all colors did they choose cyan? it is the most prone to fading. Why not magenta, after all, its always the cyan layer that begins to fade first.

Josh

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-18-2002 10:27 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gelatin emulsions are "hardened" so they can be processed in very warm aqueous processing solutions. Washes are used to remove residual processing chemicals like developer and fixer. Silver is efficiently recovered from the fixer and washes.

Red light (most efficient LEDs) is best modulated by cyan dye. The cyan dye used in Kodak print films today is much more stable than the cyan dyes used before the early 1980's.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-19-2002 12:24 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Brad

Maybe they were referring to the Scope versions of Minority Report. The Dolby Digital has a very higfh error rate 7-F but the SR track is just appalling! I had better sound at the drive in using tube amps 25 years ago than what these things give out of their SR tracks.

Just a thought...

PS: I've also heard nothing about changing to cyan.

John

------------------
Too much of the rest of the film is given over to a romance between Padme and Anakin in which they're incapable of uttering anything other than the most basic and weary romantic cliches, while regarding each other as if love was something to be endured rather than cherished. There is not a romantic word they exchange that has not long since been reduced to cliche.

No, wait: Anakin tells Padme at one point: "I don't like the sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating--not like you. You're soft and smooth." I hadn't heard that before.

- Roger Ebert reviewing Episode 2. :)

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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 06-19-2002 12:51 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks John,

That does sound like a possibillity.
i'm sure that by the time my cinema (art house) get's a cyan soundtrack, it would have been well publicised, especially on film-tech !

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-19-2002 06:37 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is an oddity...the Minority Report print I ran had Dolby Digital rates in 1-2 range with the occasional 3....and this from a basement reader! Of course this was a USA print so your printing may vary...just that normally we get the "junk."

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-19-2002 07:19 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If BOTH the Dolby Digital and Dolby SR tracks are poor, I suspect there may have been some slippage in the printer. Look at the Dolby Digital "bits" with a good magnifier/microscope, and compare them to a known good print. Are the bits clearly defined, or do they seem to be "smeared"?

It's likely the sound negatives for each lab worldwide were made at the same time, so it's less likely the problem lies there.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 06-19-2002 11:15 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An update .
I again spoke with the person who called me and she was told that ATLAB (australia) have been printing some features and trailers with the cyan soundtrack. Unless someone can verify this, it's safe to say this is a rumour (and doubtful at that!)?.
Actually, i will give them a call tomorrow and see what they say?.

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Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 06-19-2002 01:41 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
This is an oddity...the Minority Report print I ran had Dolby Digital rates in 1-2 range with the occasional 3....and this from a basement reader! Of course this was a USA print so your printing may vary...just that normally we get the "junk."
Steve

I think John was refering to trailers not the actual print.


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