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Author Topic: Big Sky cue detector problem
Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-10-2002 09:52 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok boys and girls, check this one out. I have Big Sky consoles, automation, and optical cue detectors. 4 cues is our "lights up" cue for the end credits. On one particular house, all the cues (lights down, show end, etc...) work except lights up. Since other cues work, the problem can't be that the reader is out of alignment. But get this: I can pass a strip of reflective cue tape under the reader four times, and the lights will come up. So the problem can't be that cue line 4 on the automation doesn't work. What is the problem!??

Yes, I have removed the cues and reapplied new ones to verify that there are 4 and make sure they are properly spaced. Yes, they are on the emulsion side, on the frame line, at the center of the film just like all other cues on this print. They still don't work.
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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....


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Bob Brown
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 06-10-2002 10:19 PM      Profile for Bob Brown   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken. Sorry we dont use the Big Sky automations just the platters. You can contact them via web at: www.bigskyindustries.net or call Mr. Chuck Shoemaker at 816.737.3269. Hope this helps.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 06-10-2002 11:38 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken,

Have you tried spacing the foils every other frame line? I know one user out here the does that with their Big Sky cue detectors.

Paul

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-11-2002 12:00 AM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I've thought of that, but I didn't think it would make a difference since the rest of the cues on that print are single spaced. But I'll try it. And if it does work, I'd like to know why that cue requires double spacing but the rest work on single spacing!

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-11-2002 12:30 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That particular cue detector may not be outputing the correct data when 4 cues are detected. Have you swapped the whole cue detector to another machine to see if the problem follows that detector?

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Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 06-11-2002 03:16 AM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It could be the sensitivity. I worked at a theatre where we would have problems with certain cues, but not all of them. In that case it wouldn't read two cues (credits) correctly, and would interpret it as a single cue (end of show). We had our technician come in, adjust the sensitivity, and it worked perfectly afterwards. Another cue reader developed a similar problem where the cues would seem to eventually "wear out". Replacing the cue foils actually would make the problem go away for a while, but the problem would eventually reappear. Again it turned out to be the sensitivity. In both of these cases when cue tape was waved under the reader it appeared to function fine.

Big Sky has two different cue readers. The first only has one adjustment for sensitivity, adjustment procedures are in the manual. The second supposedly shouldn't be adjusted except by the factory. This one has two adjustments - sensitivity, and the other I think was for contrast. If you have this one get a tech to adjust it - since the manual says not to, and if problems show up later you can't be blamed.

Steven Gorsky


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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 06-11-2002 01:42 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the frame line??? Ugh!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-11-2002 01:54 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Jesse, you beat me to it. Any cue detector that requires the cues to be placed anywhere in the picture area should be junked. Edges only.

Ken, you said it takes FOUR CUES to do the command on the frameline, right? Oh how I detest those! The cues never come off without leaving residue and they look HORRIBLE on screen. Someone designed those without any thought into presentation!

Junk those things and buy a batch of CA21s.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-11-2002 02:03 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Brad. As I read this thread I couldn't help but be reminded of the Neumade (?) automations that forum member Jeff Skallan must deal with at his theater. Big Sky sounds like the same thing. They also have 4 or 5 cues in a row just to perform one little thing. And yes they are in the picture area. It really doesn't matter if they are on the frame line or not, just as long as they are evenly spaced. I haven't taken a good look at Jeff's cue readers, but perhaps they could be adjusted to put the cue on the inboard side of the film. Of course I think just the idea of having to put multiple stickers on the film just for a certain function = ass. I'm glad Mann Theaters woke up and got us CA21's instead of the Neumade/Xetron stuff... agree Brad?

Brad was able to mount the CA21 readers so the sticker could be on the edge. Why not other automations?


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Kyle Watkins
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 185
From: Stuart, FL, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-11-2002 03:44 PM      Profile for Kyle Watkins   Email Kyle Watkins   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The neumade are a pain. I deal with them everyday. We can put on up to 8 cues. and right in the middle they go.

1-end show
2- credits lights mid
3- flat/sr
4- scope/sr
5-surround EX
6- scope only
7- feature lights dim
8- interlock start

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-11-2002 08:18 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I, too, think the design is crap. I hate seeing the cues on screen, and they do leave residue when removed. But I did not purchase the equipment, and I have no say over what gets installed. So of you have any ideas what the problem could be, I'd appreciate it.

Like the Neumade, the cues don't *have* to be on the frameline, just evenly spaced. I suppose the manual says the frame line just so that they are less visible. I think the readers are basically the same (or very similar) to the Neumade/Xetron. They use the same optical cue tape.

Maybe someone could come up with a way to realign/reposition the reader so that the cues could be placed along the edge of the film?


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Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 06-11-2002 09:05 PM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The cues being visible, and leaving a residue are the reasons the theatre chain I used to work for had the cues set the way they did. The three and four cue for flat/SR and scope/SR were placed either at the end of the exit snipe, or on the first ad in complete black. Seven cues for lights down was on our policy trailer in black. Two cues for credits/lights mid - placed in black if possible, and one for end of show. In other words it was set-up so the least amount of cues had to go on the print that had to be removed when it left.

One way to make the cues remove easily without a residue is to place them on top of a piece of splicing tape. Regarding repositioning the cue reader - it is probably fairly easy to do. Just a matter of changing the spacers.

Steven Gorsky

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 06-11-2002 09:51 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've thought of placing the cue on top of splicing tape, but four cues is the lights up cue and 5 is the shutdown cue. That's a lot of splicing tape, which I would think would create a noticible jump when it goes through the gate. But I'll give it a try. I could just talk to my GM about having the automation reprogrammed so that the cues that must be removed from the film are only one or two cues rather than four and five like they are now.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-12-2002 01:50 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, you are a master projection booth tech now. Everyone is relying on you to discover a way to reposition the cue readers so that they can reliably read cues when placed on the inboard edge of the film. You can do it! If you can't, you owe me $1 and you owe Jeff Skallan $20.


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Jeff Skallan
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Littleton, CO, USA
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 06-12-2002 04:51 AM      Profile for Jeff Skallan   Email Jeff Skallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ummm.... sounds good to me Joe! For the most part, if placed correctly, the cues are not noticeable with flat presentations. With scope film, they will be seen. When I first used the Neumade cueing system we had to place 6 for lights at end credits and 7 for shut down. That got old really quick so we then reprogramed the automation to 1 and 2 cues.

I agree that having to peel them off of say the emulsion side of the film is a poor idea. One thing I've done is placed the cue over a very small piece of nonstick artists tape cut the width of the film. This peels easier and has less of a chance to scratch the image surface. The good thing is that the cues will last a long time! I've been reusing fullcoat magnetic film spacers with cues placed after the trailers that have run for more than 5 years. I've never once seen a missed cue.

I've tried cutting down the size of the cue to get twice for the money, but have never been able to get them to work 100% of the time. It would indeed be best to redesign the placement for edge cueing and be able to cut them lengthwise get more cues for the money. Ken is now nominated!

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