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Topic: Cinemecannica Relay

Scott Manley
Film Handler

Posts: 59
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-06-2002 05:31 PM

Can anyone advise me where I might be able to find a power relay for a 2K lamphouse....is the 4 pole relay........

I've searched all over.....HELP.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 06-06-2002 06:00 PM

Is it a Cinemecannica power supply, or is it an IREM power supply connected to a Cinemecannica lamphouse?

The IREM/Cinemecannica combination was very popular. If it is an IREM supply, you will need a contactor with a 220/240 coil - certainly not unheard of, but harder to get than a 110 volt.

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Scott Manley
Film Handler

Posts: 59
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-06-2002 06:58 PM

It has an Irem in the console.....I tried Grainger and Summit supplies....with no result.....Grainger said they didn't sell a 4 pole 220v.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 06-06-2002 09:21 PM

Do you want to find your own replacement contactor, or just call someone and get a replacement sent? If you want to just have one sent to you, I'd suggest calling Neumade (203) 270-1100. They have sold IREM power supplies for years. You should look at the power supply and find the model number (a N3-X75 or G3-X75 is a popular 2000w supply.)

If you want to find your own, (which I don't recommend) I'd suggest looking at the contactor and reading any info you can off the label. Since the IREM is made in Italy, it may be written in Italian. Finding your own carries the risk of buying the wrong type (in single quanities, they can cost up to $200) but also hooking it up wrong. There's a lot of power in there, so be careful!

Grainger and Summit only sell contactors; I'd suggest you look at contactor manufacturer's catalogs to find a suitable replacement. Allen-Bradley makes the kind of contactor you're looking for; so does Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Siemans, and ABB. Actually, there was an ABB contactor in the last IREM I fixed.

Many contactor manufacturers do only make a 3-pole - but they all also make a "bolt-on" 4th pole - an extra contact that can be mounted to the side, and operate with the others. If you can not find a 3-pole, you need to look at the avaiable accessories to see what parts to order to gat another pole mounted.

The older IREMs had contactors that mounted to the power supply frame with screws. The newer ones mount the contactor on what's called a DIN rail. The contactor body "snaps" onto the rail without any screws. It can be crowded in there, so be sure all the the power's shut off.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-06-2002 09:38 PM

Usually they are Telemecanic relays and most electrical wholesalers that cary that brand could get it

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Scott Manley
Film Handler

Posts: 59
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-06-2002 09:40 PM

Yes it is on a DIN rail......and always rule #1.....power off...
anyway........
What I would like..is to replace it with an exact replicant....I will try to contact Neumade.....the one that is burnt up is a BBC....also says Petercem....which is nowhere around here to be found.

Thanks

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 06-06-2002 10:34 PM

I forgot had some pictures of the last contactor I changed. I sent them in... when Brad gets a little free time, he'll put them up here.

The number on the contactor is B25-30-10 (mfg: ABB.) I had to put a "ty-rap" on it to keep the lamp on while a replacement could be sent.

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Gregory N. Jones
Film Handler

Posts: 27
From: Newtown, CT, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-07-2002 10:48 AM

Scott, following John's advice please send me an E-mail @ NeumadeGJ@aol.com stating which power supply it is (G3X75, G3X95, etc.) and we will be able to hook you up with a replacement.

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Scott Manley
Film Handler

Posts: 59
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-07-2002 10:37 PM

Thanks guys......I found one today.......at least i'll know that I did tomorrow when it arrives.

Thanks Gregory.......i'll keep your email address

Scott

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004

posted 12-23-2009 12:22 AM

It has been 2755 days since the last post.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12-23-2009 12:22 AM

Sorry to dig up such an old thread here. I've been trying to educate myself on Irem rectifiers as much as possible since I service quite a few of them. John, in your picture above, why does there appear to be two contactors here. Does the one that appears to be external to the rectifier control something else entirely?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 12-23-2009 03:44 AM

You are seeing a console version...the contactor nestled into the rectifier is the IREM contactor...the other one is console related...like a main on/off contactor for the console. What may be throwing you is that Neumade used the ABB 4-pole contactors for everything, it seems.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-24-2009 12:13 AM

Hi, there, Ken! Yes, Steve's right, that external contactor turned on/off the entire console, and doesn't have anything to do directly with the rectifier.

Below is some info you might find interesting; I don't know if you are already familiar with some of this, so forgive me if you already know...

IREMs usually use a 4-pole contactor; 3 contacts are for the power, and the 4th is to provide power to the IREM's "C" terminal when the contactor is pulled in. Originally, this 4th contact was intended by IREM for a self-latching circuit, but in Neumade/Xetron applications, it isn't used that way. It is used to provide power to the meter panel; specifically, it powers the little power transformer for the digital volt/amp meter, and the igniter.

Although the 4-poles look the same, only the first 3 are rated high enough (current) to switch the rectifier. The 4th pole is lower rated, as it was only meant to carry the contactor's coil power.

BTW, that external contactor was made by ABB, and the smaller version was used in some IREM supplies. It had a very poor life; the actual contacts would burn up all the time, often burning up the crimp lugs and wire, too. It was a special pain because they are usually located buried in the chassis, with short wires, making it hard to service. It got so bad, I was thinking about having Neumade offer a kit of parts which would fix a burned set of contacts and also extend the wires so the contactor could be located outside the chassis.

I found a kinda cool moving gif showing a contactor self-latching circuit, (scroll down a bit on the page.) Remember, this is not how Neumade does it, but other manufacturers' do:

latching relay wiring pictorial

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 12-24-2009 06:32 AM

We found that IREM really was using the wrong contactor for US applications running on 208VAC...they were rated too low. I want to say for the N/G3-75 rectifiers (2K) and below they were using A10 series (after they were using B09 series)...which, despite what anyone will tell you is really a 10A contactor...too low...they then moved to the A16 series...which again, is too low for a 2K system...treat the contactor like you would a breaker...make sure you are running at no more than 80% of capacity. Turn up the current till you get 85A on that 2K lamp...measure the current on the incoming phases...divide by .8 and that is the MINIMUM contactor you should use!

We started stocking and installing A26 series for the 2K and below and whola...problems vanished.

For the 3K and above (N/G3-95s) I think they transitioned to either the A26 or the A30. An A30 will likely do okay in a 3KW situation but not 4K and above...we started to use A40s and again, no more problems.

With ABB A series...use the number after the A to determine current capacity of the contactor and again, make sure you are only 80% or less of that rating and your problems will go away.

You can also get a more commonly available Square-D contactor of say 50A rating for about 1/4 the cost...it will only have 3-poles but for the US market, that is all you really need.

Steve

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12-24-2009 02:18 PM

John, the rectifier in that picture looks much newer than the G3's I service. When did Neumade start using those contactors like that?

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