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Author Topic: Vu-Meter
Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-22-2002 05:55 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone.

Let's say that my amps don't have a vu-meter on the front panel. Is there a way to know how much power (Watt) is coming out from my amp?

Is there something that can I measure?

Thanks
Antonio

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-22-2002 06:10 AM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Watts = Volts * Amps

so put some pink noise through the amp and measure the volts and amps of the speaker outputs.


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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-22-2002 07:39 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A better way is to use V X V/R (volts squared divided by the resistance of the load). If you know the impedance of the speaker system (and assuming it purely resistive, which is a good first approximation) using a sine wave to drive your amplifier, measure the AC voltage accross the speaker and compute. You will want to use a scope to monitor the output wave form to insure that the system is just below clipping, that way you will have a figure of the undistorted power output.

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David Koegel
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Alexandria, VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-22-2002 07:56 AM      Profile for David Koegel   Email David Koegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jon -- You mean using one of those clamp-on amp meters, the ones for normal powerline applications (e.g., 120/220 volts 60Hz)? Or would the pink noise frequencies give a mis-reading on those?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-22-2002 10:36 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Use voltage and load impedance as current measurements with noise are difficult to do accurately

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-22-2002 05:35 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
let's say that I want to build a vu-meter using an analogic indicator. Then I would like to connect it to my speakers to visually see the power.

What should I use?

Bye
Antonio

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 05-23-2002 04:01 PM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What you're proposing would not exactly be a VU meter, but a power meter. An AC voltmeter will do the trick, but you'll need to translate the voltage measurements into power output. If you use a simple AC voltmeter, you can calibrate it by using a 1khz sine wave and using the power formula above to compute the output power while you measure across the speaker terminals.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-23-2002 04:36 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks,

I'll try.

I would like to have an analog indicator. What voltmeter should I buy? Which range?

Bye
Antonio

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 05-23-2002 08:31 PM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Get the best volt/ohmmeter your budget will allow, but it really doesn't have to be very expensive to do this measurement. Since it looks like you want to actually see a meter (D'Arsonval movement), don't get a digital multimeter. Almost any voltmeter will have ranges that work up to around 1,000v and you're not going to see that kind of EMF at a speaker. Simpsons are great, but they're expensive. I have a $60 Radio Shack analog meter that I lug around. It works just fine, it's accurate enough and if I drop it, I won't shed any tears. (It's funny, though...how I only seem to drop the expensive stuff, never the junk). My favorite one used to be an old RCA Voltohmyst Vacuum Tube Voltmeter that I used for about 25 years until I finally entered the solid state age.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-24-2002 12:40 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio, i am assuming that what you are not trying to use this meter to get precision readings of the amp output, but you just want an indication of the relative power it is pumping out at any given moment and how close the amp is to its clipping point, am I right? The voltmeter setup is fine for this. You just want to calibrate it using a sinewave gen and oscope to determine the clipping point running into your normal speaker load. Set your meter to read in a range so it is not pinning when your amp just begins clipping. Then mark the point on your meter glass just below where clipping begins and you've got yourself a power meter that will give you the information that is most useful -- how close is your amp running to clipping at any given time. When calibrating, be sure to run your sine wave gen thru a range of frequencies rather than just say 1kHz as the amp may very well clip sooner at lower frequencies into real-life speaker loads.

Lafayette Radio, a long-gone supply of cheap electrical parts and gear, made a power meter that basically was nothing more than the voltmeter setup with a simple buffer circuit that gave the needle smoothed-out ballistics. It had a convenient calibration pot that you set to the amp's clipping level. Since this was a consumer unit, their instructions as how to calibrate it was simply to turn up your amp until you could hear distortion and that was where you set your meter to read 0db -- it had markings above "0db" to +6db in red -- naturally the markings mean nothing. I still use them on my left & right surround amps just to see what they are doing. It's not a calibration-accurate meter, but it does tell me that I've got signal and that it is playing at normal levels.

I think Radio Shack used to make a similar unit with nice big lighted meters and it even had peak indication LEDs to boot. Since I dread even walking into Radio Shack, I have no idea if they still make that unit, but it probably will accomplish what you are looking for.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-24-2002 07:42 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank,

--
Antonio, i am assuming that what you are not trying to use this meter to get precision readings of the amp output, but you just want an indication of the relative power it is pumping out at any given moment and how close the amp is to its clipping point, am I right?
--
Absolutely right.

Thanks for your help!

Antonio

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 05-30-2002 06:19 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, I would be very wary about running a sine wave through a speaker system at levels high enough to produce amplifier clipping, at least not for more than a few seconds, particlarly considering that cinema amps typically have power ratings of at least 400 watts!

Also it would be necessary to set your "meter" clipping reference point to around 6-8dB below the sine wave clipping point because the meter cannot react fast enought to real-world audio and so will give a false reading. The clip LEDs in amplifiers usually begin to glow at 10 to 8dB below clipping for this reason.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-30-2002 06:21 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Ray!

Antonio

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 05-30-2002 06:44 AM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray is absolutely right. You'll blow the speakers if your run the amps all the way into clipping. Meters are RMS (root mean square) devices. They'll show you the value that represents about .7 of the actual peak-to-peak voltage. I was assuming that you simply wanted to measure the voltage at the speaker terminals as a reference. If you want the see the actual point at which an amp clips, you need to run it into a dummy load and watch the output on an oscilloscope.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-30-2002 06:26 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You guys are right. Dummy load, of course; NOT speakers.

I worked as sound designer on a show years ago -- THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE NIGHT. The thing I decided that would be what went bump in the night, was a 40Hz sine wave generated by a piece of audio test gear. All went well until during the first performance I decided I really wanted to make the room vibrate. So I called for an increase in level. About a minute later, the old house speakers that were playing back the audio actually burst into flames. I killed the sound, but both speaker cones had caught fire inside their enclosures. Seems the voice coil got so hot that the paper cones which must have been 20 years old and dry as tinder, caught fire. Pretty sturdy voice coils, eh? Neither burned out....just lit the cones! Also quite a nice special effect!

Frank


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