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Author Topic: Simplex Oil Pump - slow startup
Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 04-28-2002 12:02 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I run my XL's regularly to keep the oil circulated etc. My workshop furnace is out of oil, and I've noticed that sometimes I'll need to start the machine, run for 20-30 seconds, then stop and start it again to get the oil splash running. Is this just a symptom of cooler temps, or indicative of a problem? It runs just fine after that.....

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-28-2002 01:16 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd say that as long as your oil tubes are all clear & unclogged and your filter screen isn't blocked there should be little to no problems.

It's safe to assume that you have the correct oil in the machine and it gets changed regularly, isn't it? (Of COURSE it is! )

Other than that, I'd sort of make an experiment. Try it now, with the room cold and observe. Try it later with the room warm and compare results.

Generally speaking, I'd imagine that as long as the machine gets oil within a few seconds you aren't in any real danger. I'm sure there's going to be a higher rate of wear and tear in that period but even when the oil is running normally there's a short "dry" period before the oil makes its way up to the top of the machine.

Heck! I've seen Simplexes run completely dry for DAYS with little to no effect once the right oil was put in them.

If this concerns you a lot, just minimize use of the machine under those conditions.

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Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 04-28-2002 02:55 PM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Normally you should get oil sooner then that. Since the intermittent has oil collected in it you should be OK.

Make sure you havre the correct oil for thr machine. The oil should be changed every now and then depending on hours of use and condition of room. Clean the oil pick up screen usually when you change oil. This may be part of your problem. You need to remove the back, undo the oil tube, and take out the oil pump. Clean the screen carefully, put some Simplex into one of the operings and rotate the gear untill oil comes from the other one. Reinstall pump and set for proper gear mesh to main drive shaft. Make sure projector back and door are completely clean from oil and reinstall rear door. This is were most oil leaks happen. I do not recommend any sealer but the new P-6644 door gaskeys work nice. Hope this helps.
Dick

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-28-2002 03:45 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Millenium series of XL's we have, however, seemed to have found new places in which to leak, specifically around the 51-48026 (formerly P-4366) cover plate and the oil site glass making rather a mess in the film compartment. Any recommendations on this?

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-28-2002 03:47 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, I agree with Dick. Clean the pump screen as it clogs with 'varnished' old oil after a while and can imped or slow down oil pump action.

Welcome to film-tech Dick Glad to have you aboard!

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 04-28-2002 05:23 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, does the oil get old with use, or just by sitting there? I generally run them for a few minutes every week or so only. So I haven't changed the oil since I replaced the oil take-ups (for upward throw) about a year ago. I bet I've run them no more than a couple hours each in that time just to keep 'em lube'd. I still think it's the cold. After 90deg. temps a couple weeks back, we're right around freezing today. I did a small experiment. One machine, I added a little new oil (stirring it up a bit), that machine started the oil bath immediately. The other, started for 8-10 seconds, shut off and allowed to stop completely, started and the oil came instantly. I really think it's the cold, last year I kept the garage heated and they never did this. I'll change the oil though if you guys think it best, it looks very fresh, but whatever you think. Thank you.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-28-2002 05:43 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is just the cold that is causing the problem

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-29-2002 05:58 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone have any personal preferences for the best procedure for changing the oil? How bout a rule-of-thumb for how often this should be done?

And as long as we are on oil, Here is something I learned the hard way. During a show, the Simplex SH1000 sound head simply froze and stripped both brass gears in the transmission gearbox, the fiber gears between the soundhead and picture head plus a few of the breakaweay gears on the vertical shaft. When I opened up the soundhead gear box I found that there was no oil at all in it, but plenty of powdered brass. Yet, the glass oil indicator window showed a "full tank." Seems that the tube that connects the glass indicator window to the gearbox casing had gotten clogged. Putting oil in the filler cap would only fill the glass window while no oil was getting to the gearbox. The solution naturally is to unscrew the connecting tube and clean it thoroughly. From then on, when you add oil, clean off the filler cap and blow into it. The oil should be forced down the glass window and into the gearbox. When you stop blowing, it should slowly rise back up. A false reading in the oil window can be very distructive, as I learned. A technican told me that he has seen the brass gears in a soundhead grind away in less than an hour when a soundhead was inadvertantly run dry.

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-29-2002 04:33 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dick -- good to see your picture again! Don't know if you remember me from my days in Portland and Seattle, but good to hear from you. Hope life is well.

This oil filter and points of seepage remain items on my hit list for the Simplex. We're staying after it.

It does sound as though cool temperatures might have something to do with the slow circulation of oil in the projector. I wonder if the oil is correct -- it's pretty thin and you have to get to pretty cool temperatures to see it thicken to a point where it won't get through the machine okay.

Pat

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 04-29-2002 09:11 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's the good stuff! Simplex Projector Oil (10wt.)....

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-29-2002 09:34 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pat,

If it doesn't leak oil, how will people know it's a Simplex?

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-29-2002 10:42 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Randy -- the term is "seep", please...

Have to admit, they're better than they used to be.

Pat

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-29-2002 11:27 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Dick,
Welcome to Film-Tech. Glad to have you aboard so you can spread some of your knowledge among us. For those of you that don't know Dick, he is one of the most knowledgable people around when it comes to rebuilding X-L's.

I'll add one more thing to the original question and that is the spring that is between the impellors inside the pump. I've seen this spring suffer from compression set somewhat and replacing it and both impellors will help get a pump back to its proper pumping volume.
We've installed alot of Mellinneum's and have had only very minor seepage on a few of them and that was easily taken care of. For the most part they stay tight as a drum, and I totally agree with Rick on the fact that Strong has done and is still doing an amazing job with the X-L, and the 5 Star sound reproducer. There have been many seepage points on the X-L that have been totally fixed. I agree that the Yamaha oil sight glass needs fixing next. I think thats the last real seepage point on the entire projector.
Mark @ GTS

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Dick Prather
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-10-2002 03:53 AM      Profile for Dick Prather   Email Dick Prather   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To Pat, Mark, & Ken,
Thank you for the welcome. Pat, I have followed your progress over the years and wish you well. Feel free to stop by if you are ever in Portland. Wish I had more time to check the forum more often.

I agree that the cold weather will be a slow oil factor but I have started rebuilt X-L's in my garage at 40 and below and the oil takes right off. As long as you have the pump out I agree with Mark you might as well look at the vane spring and vanes. I usually pull very slightly on it before reassembling. By the way My X-L's don't leak either. Vary clean smooth surfaces and a clean P-6644 works for me every time.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 05-10-2002 10:57 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would like to add my welcome to Dick Prather. Those of you who don't know him will soon learn that his suggestions can always be trusted. When we wanted to do the sound reader kit for the Kalee we checked with Dick and sure enough, he had one for us to borrow for our development. He also has the only XLs I have ever seen that have the focusing telescopes on them. I always wondered what the funny little bracket was for until I saw his machines.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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