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Author Topic: Kinetronics and film scratchs
Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-26-2002 04:46 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone.

In one of our theater we have a Kinoton Endless loop platter with a kinetronic vaacum film cleaner.

From few weeks vertical scratches on the prints appeared... in the middle of the images.
Since nothing is touching the print on the middle, I was thinking that the film cleaner (that uses soft brushes to remove the dust) is the cause of the scratches.

We are now playing the movie without the cleaner to see what happens.
In the meantime I completely disassembled the cleaner and I clean it deeply. I've noticed that the brushed are like "blowed" where the print passed. Could be the brushes became "harder" in that area so that they are scratching the print?

Is there anyone with a kinetronics cleaner? Should the brushes have to be changed periodically?

Thanks for your help

Antonio

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-26-2002 04:53 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brush cleaners can scratch when the ends of the hairs get split ends

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-26-2002 04:54 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon,

What do you mean with "split ends"?
A

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-26-2002 06:16 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ends of the hairs get split open from subbing the film and become razor sharp

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Paul Cassidy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 549
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 04-26-2002 06:18 PM      Profile for Paul Cassidy   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Cassidy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats something women with long hair Hate

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 04-26-2002 07:22 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to use the Kinetronics cleaner. There are instructions for removing and cleaning the brushes, but I don't remember anything about replacing them. But if the brushes are damaged, they would be easy to replace.

Stick with a Kelmar media cleaner and Film Guard!

------------------
This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-26-2002 09:07 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm hoping this Kinetronics cleaner is the brush type I'm familiar with - crossed counter-rotating black brushes that brush the film then a chrome tube with a slit that sucke the dust off via a vacuum?
I've seen these scratch film (Imax) when maladjusted. The chrome tube has to be fairly deep into the brush - maybe 3/16" - so the brush gets "flicked" pretty hard as it passes. If the vacuum tube just touches or doesn't touch the brush, dirt tends to get trapped. The brush won't scratch a seasoned print but a bit of grit on it will.
I mention this because one of the symptoms of insufficient tube contact was the matting or whatever on the brushes that shows where the film contacts them. With a good flicking action this doesn't happen much.
As well, a really large overlap of the brushes can make the bristle shafts scarpe along the film rather than just the tips brushing it. The brushes should be about 1/8" into each other.
And I would hesitate to use the brush on a green print, get a few passes on it first to get the emulsion totally dry.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-27-2002 04:02 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave,

My brushes are not rotating...

So you suggest to don't have the cleaner installed when the print is new. I was thinking of that.

Thanks
Antonio

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 04-27-2002 09:15 AM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave,

I don't know what cleaner you're referring to, but that's not the Kintetronics.

This is the one Antonio is talking about.


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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....


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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-27-2002 12:12 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, that is my cleaner.

I found out that the scratch is there also without the cleaner...

WHAT can scratch the print IN THE MIDDLE of the frame? It is not a continue scratch, it is intermittent...

I'm become crazy.

Antonio

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 04-27-2002 12:17 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What type of projector and sound heads do you have. Remember the only thing that should touch the picture area is the sound drum and preasure rollers. Check these and make sure they are turning freely and make sure the sound drum is turning smoothly.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-27-2002 02:13 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cinemeccanica V5 with penthouse sound drum.

Our sound drum is not touching the print, there are two rail that keeps the print lifted...

Antonio

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-27-2002 02:27 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm, a V5 would have an awful hard time scratching a print the way it is designed. Let's look at your platter or tower first. Do you run a platter/tower and what kind?

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-27-2002 03:08 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The easiest way to scratch film with a V5 is to make the upper loop too big. This would cause the type of intermittent scratches that (I think) Antonio is describing. I'm willing to be that this is the problem, unless there's something about the curved-gate machines that might do it...I've only worked with the straight-gate models.

One of the best things about the Century design (35mm only, not the JJ) is that the pad rollers set the loop sizes when open. This not only speeds up threading, but also makes it very difficult to grossly misthread the machine. I don't believe that I have ever seen scratches caused by a Century projector--only by platters, rollers, rewinding, etc.


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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 04-27-2002 04:05 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On some of the older versions of V-5 with the mechanical aperture link pin or film rupture safety switch, you could mark the film; but that would be a very large, noisy flapping loop....and to an Italian projectionist who could not handle a Cinemeccanica ( Prevost / Pio Pion / Microcine / Veronese ) projector, then he ( she ) must make bad pasta
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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