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Topic: Question for the pros... WHATS THAT SCRATCH???

Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 03-30-2002 03:11 AM

This question has been bugging at me forever now.

I am sure and hopeful that I am not insane, BUT, I am watching on DVD, the Good the bad and the ugly. In this, I am seeing something that I always saw in just about every single scope film during my tenure as a projectionist and manager, Especially the ones from fox..

WHat I am seeing, is at the bottom and/or top of the frame, during angle changes, a line of what could be called static. It appears literally for only one frame, and occurs only at an angle change. I noticed it was very heavy during Star Wars phantom menace.

Does anyone know why this is? It cant be the projector, because it happens only on angle changes. Any clue helpful.

John Pytlak, maybe you might have a clue?

Dave

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 03-30-2002 03:19 AM

I know what you are talking about and I would describe it as a negative splice that happens during editing. You should not see this if the movie is properly framed with well-cut aperture plates. If you see this on DVD then it is a BAD BAD and UGLY transfer! Nothing "good" about it!

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-30-2002 04:20 AM

Joe is right. Are negative spice.

But sometimes I had to misframe a bit some movie because the negative splice was visible (and my aperture plates are right, I've checked them with RP40).

Bye
Antonio

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 03-30-2002 04:58 AM

Ooooooh don't get me started on RP40. I'm sure your apertures are fine, Antonio, but never use it to set up framing. Ever. Instead, make a loop out of an old trailer or something that you KNOW is in frame. In the US people can use a good greenband. But if you use RP40 to set your framing, it will be off. It's been a few years since I set framing knobs to RP40, but if you do I believe it makes the image a bit too low, and you will see the negative splices on top of the frame.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 03-31-2002 04:00 AM

Yes indeedy, either RP40 is not properly centered, or EVERY other lab conveniently prints exactly the same amount off of centerline. Never trust RP40 for anything other than initial alignment. Once things are set up and perfect, you will have to adjust the framing control just a tad to get it truly in frame.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 03-31-2002 08:56 AM

If you use B&W "RP-40" With BH-1866 perforations (the ones that have rounded sides) then it is reasonable to expect the framing to be off in relation to a release print. The BH-1866 perforation and pitch are only supposed to be used for negatives, which 35-PA is. Unfortunately, that isn't what projectors are running. Projectors expect KS-1870 perforations which have a longer pitch and a positive perforation.

Since 35-PA is used to also set up Telecines which pin-register to BH-1866 perforations, SMPTE made a test film that would "work" for both worlds. I have put forth a posistion paper to the SMPTE that, among other things, requests using KS-1870 perforations as the standard for 35-PA with the short pitch BH-1866 film as a special request for lab use. I believe you will find that the color version of "RP-40" called 35-IQ is on KS-1870 perforations and will more closely represent release prints.

Another thing to note when using test film to register framing for releae prints...some labs use bi-directional printers. As such if one reel was printed in the forward direction and the next reel was printed in the reverse direction, there will be a vertical shift equal to the slop of the sprocket tooth within the perforation so don't expect the framing to be "perfect" all the way through the show no matter how you set it up.

Stev

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 03-31-2002 10:39 AM

"Another thing to note when using test film to register framing for releae prints...some labs use bi-directional printers. As such if one reel was printed in the forward direction and the next reel was printed in the reverse direction, there will be a vertical shift equal to the slop of the sprocket tooth within the perforation so don't expect the framing to be "perfect" all the way through the show no matter how you set it up."

Kinda blows apart that "lock the framing knob" idea, huh?

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-31-2002 11:11 AM

They ought to have the reels marked for direction of printing and put only like aligned reels together in one print.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-31-2002 11:23 AM

The negative splice issue is one I still get a bit hot under the collar over
That is why the scope apperture has shrunk from the original 715 high down to 690
Hig speed printing required also a wider overlap in the splices for strength and that with bidirectional printing compromissed the image

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-31-2002 01:28 PM

Joe/Brad,

I just said that my *aperture plates* are right, I didn't frame with RP40.

Bye
Antonio

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 03-31-2002 05:40 PM

Antonio-
I know, but others might assume RP40 is the best way to frame.

Jerry-
Steve is just making a pathetic excuse for changeover booths. He is trying to make us all think that framing will be WAAAY off from reel to reel if reels were printed in opposite directions and run on a platter system without someone there to adjust framing at the reel change. This may happen, but it is not enough to notice (unless you have Steve Guttag's robotic precision ). Once I locked my framing knobs down I never noticed the "negative splices" again. And our apertures (most of them) were cut properly.

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Andy Muirhead
Master Film Handler

Posts: 323
From: Galashiels, Scotland
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 03-31-2002 05:53 PM

This is a fairly common problem in exhibition (and the post's above regarding plates, etc, show why), but i'm AMAZED that it has reared its ugly head on a DVD.

Why did nobody spot this? It's a pet hate of mine, and i had all my plates and masking re-cut to get rid of this problem. It's so easy to spot, why was it missed in the DVD transfer?

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 03-31-2002 06:00 PM

And it's true that Fox movies seem particularly prone to this. My laserdisc of STAR WARS (The original, original one) has visible splices throughout.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-31-2002 06:05 PM

Actually Joe if your plates are cut to spec then yes bi directional printing will show up especially on scope.

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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 03-31-2002 06:08 PM

Look for it in all techniscope spaghetti-westerns - a n d for some reason every scope print of Guns of Navarone -- One fat white, single-frame stripe for every scene-chance the whole film trough.
Not very funny to watch.

/p.

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