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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Film cement joins (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Film cement joins
Glen Rich
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Nedlands, Western Australia
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-12-2002 05:17 PM      Profile for Glen Rich   Email Glen Rich   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With the introduction of polyester(read crap)based film,I've found that most,if not all of the second hand prints that we've received from the U.S. are still being repaired with film cement.
I noted that the manufacturer recommended using splicing tape,and not film cement,(just before I sliced my left thumb open with it for the first time).Is it required practice,force of habit,or am I just getting lucky.
I find that I spend way to much time either removing the cement joins,or taping over them if trying to get the print on screen 10 minutes ago.
The last time that I actually used film cement was during a required part of training,nearly 20 years ago.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 03-12-2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film cement won't work on polyester, period. What you may be seeing are ultrasonic splices. They look quite similar (between perf overlap) but their durability is quite different. An ultrasonic splice is very strong and there is no need for removal unless it happens in the middle of the frame and causes the picture to look too ugly.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 03-12-2002 07:05 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve is quite right. Polyester film stock CANNOT be spliced with film cement. Only tape or ultrasonic splices work.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-12-2002 08:52 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve is correct. Don't even waste your time to try it. It simply will not work.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-13-2002 12:38 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yea, If you do atempt trying to do it at all Paul will throw that hot dog right out through your Monitor screen! The bad thing there is that they're real greasy.
Mark @ GTS

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Stan Gunn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Clematis, in the hills near Melbourne Australia
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 12:53 AM      Profile for Stan Gunn   Author's Homepage   Email Stan Gunn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A cement splice on acetate, if done correctly is as good as an ultra sonic splice on poly.
Anyone trying to join poly with cement must have not been takeing notice of the changes in the industry over the past few years.

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KALEE FOREVER. CARBON ARC, THE ONLY LIGHT FOR THE STARS!
ALL PARTS FOR VICTOR AND KALART VICTOR 16MM PROJECTORS.SERVICE TO 35 AND 16MM PROJECTION EQUIPMENT.
35MM sprockets made to order.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-13-2002 01:06 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I also want to jump on the "Steve is correct" bandwagon. You can never have too many people telling you the same thing. Cement splices don't work on polyester film.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 02:38 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd like to jump on the 'Stan is correct' bandwagon, and furthermore add that on acetate, properly made cement joins are better than tape joins in every possible way. Nothing is visible on the screen, digital sound is not affected (only two Dolby data blocks are affected, and I believe the system can survive four corrupted ones without dropping to analogue) and the join will last longer than any splicing tape before drying out. Furthermore, when it has dried out, if you remake the join with care, gently removing the dried cement and cleaning the area of film from which the emulsion has been scraped off, the join can be remade without any loss of frames. OK some sorts of tape are better than others when it comes to leaving deposits, but they all will if they're left on the film long enough.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 05:13 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to see a lot of ultrasonic splices in first run films, I don't recall ever seeing one that wasn't a; smack in the middle of a frame. b; out of rack or c; had a wildy colourful 'splat' all around it. I assume these are done by the lab, if they run out of stock mid-print? Needless to say they all had enormous gaps in the sound track, and needless to say they were all cut out and replaced with a good tape join.

I too haven't seen or made a cement join in years. I was taught to make them in training, never used them on 35mm, have used them on 16mm and 8mm though.

BTW Steve is correct, whilst I've never personally tried, everything I've ever read says that cement won't stick poly based film.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 07:25 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to go back to my archive training notes to find out the chemistry of this, but I seem to remember that the reason why has to do with the 'subbing layer' (which is camphor in the case of nitrate and something else in the case of acetate) which binds the emulsion to the base. You scrape off the emulsion to expose this layer, and that is what the cement reacts with to produce an adhesive effect. Polyester doesn't have a subbing layer, which is why it won't work. I'm sure John P could explain the reasons for this far better than I can.

The International Federation of Film Archives suggests different chemical formulations for cement to join nitrate to nitrate, nitrate to acetate and acetate to acetate. We take the wussy option and buy them ready-made...


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 07:37 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some information on splicing:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/ultrasonic.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/splice.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/hand.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/baseP.shtml
http://www.acvl.org/4c.htm

Cement (solvent) splices do NOT work on polyester (ESTAR) base films because polyester is impervious to most solvents. Cellulose triacetate and cellulose nitrate films can be cement (solvent) spliced because the solvents actually dissolve the film support to make the weld.

Here is the US MSDS for Kodak Professional Film Cement:
MSDS for Kodak Professional Film Cement

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 07:47 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Article by Joao Oliviera (film preservation scientist with the British Film Institute), on acetate decomposition and the implications of this for (amongst other issues) splicing...


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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 11:38 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In my trainee days, you were also taught how to make hand made cement splices which was easy to do with nitrate stock but not so easy with safety stock. Most film splicers in the UK were the one sprocket hole overlap type which whilst made a perfect splice you could always see a very faint line at the bottom of the screen on making up from head out. When I took my first chief’s job, I bought my own splicer, which I think was known as the intersprocket type on the frame line but suitable for release prints. As Leo said, nothing is visible on the screen.


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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 09:29 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Neumade/Griswold wet splicers were sold for negative or positive
splicing, the difference being in the width of the anvil bar which
determined the amount of overlap. The wider bar and overlap was used in projection booths and the narrow one for negative cutting. When the bar became worn, two setscrews could be loosened, and the
bar inverted, bringing a new, square and sharp-edged surface into play. A small cast iron holder contained a scraper, the surfaces of
which could also be rotated when worn, and a stiff wire brush. This
handy tool was easily lost unless attached to the splicer with a beaded chain or length of monofilament fishing line. Usually this tool was replaced by single edged razor blades, conveniently tucked
under the manufacturer's brass label on the front of the splicer.
I have a 35mm model containing two "D" cell batteries that illuminated
a 3V bulb under a convex lens, providing light for examining film
and splice in dimly lit projection booths.
Splicing cement [solvent] contained film stock disolved in acetone*,
available in thin or thick consistencies according to the user's preference. Neumade made a black, round cast iron bottle holder, with a wood, aluminum and brass pen-like applicator. A fancy gift set
on a white ceramic base was available that held bottles of water, cement and blooping ink, with a grooved tray to hold scrapers and applicators. (Photo in the 1934 Neumade catalog.)
Neumade/Griswold splicers were originally made in New York City and upstate, and are very common today, sold as nostalgic collectables for about $8 to $10. I've heard of them being made into lamps and
bookends. The 16mm model is still used by students and film collectors, and is similar to the 35mm model, but half its size and weight.

* See John Pytlak's link to Kodak Professional Film Cement (above) for a complete list of ingredients, formulae and caveats.


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Stan Gunn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Clematis, in the hills near Melbourne Australia
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 03-15-2002 10:28 PM      Profile for Stan Gunn   Author's Homepage   Email Stan Gunn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Gerard.
I have a couple of Griswold R2 splicers, what would be the chances of obtaining a scraper for one?
I intend to repaint and re nickle them for display purposes, it would be nice to have a scraper to complete them.

------------------
KALEE FOREVER. CARBON ARC, THE ONLY LIGHT FOR THE STARS!
ALL PARTS FOR VICTOR AND KALART VICTOR 16MM PROJECTORS.SERVICE TO 35 AND 16MM PROJECTION EQUIPMENT.
35MM sprockets made to order.


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