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Author Topic: Countdown on Headers
Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 01-26-2002 04:09 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was building up Moulin Rouge and something just stuck me. The countdown to 3 on the headers. I always assumed that these were seconds but upon inspection i noticed that the numbers were only spaced around 15 or 16 frames apart. So that is about a 0.6 seconds. What is the reason for this. (maybe John Pytlak can help me out, Is it some kind of standard?)

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-26-2002 04:32 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The original Academy leader is based on number space 1 foot apart (16frames) and since the cranking speed was 16fps then they were 1 second apart
The SMPTE leader (the clock) is based on seconds
There is also a modified academy leader with the numbers 24frames apart

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-26-2002 08:44 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't have the standards at home with me, but I recall that the countdown "Television Release Print" Leader with seconds countdown "clock" is specified by SMPTE 55. The new "Academy like" leader with feet countdown is specified by SMPTE 301.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 01-27-2002 09:10 PM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do any of the big studios use universal heads?

I've had one case where one reel was universal (prob. because some projectionist spliced on the wrong head), but other than that, all the films I've run come with Academy heads.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-27-2002 10:16 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael: As Gord pointed out, the numbers on almost all Academy (11-3) leaders are separated one foot apart, and are a holdover from the silent era. The SMPTE universal leader (the infamous 'Foreigner 4' clock sweep leader that counts from 8 to 2) is exactly 24 frames or one second between the numbers.

>>Do any of the big studios use universal heads?<<

The studios aren't the ones that do this, it is the labs. The following labs use SMPTE Universal leaders on *release prints*:

Technicolor NYC
CFI (now part of Tech Hollywood, so they may have changed to Academy heads by now)
Monaco Film Labs
Atlab

Early (late 70s-early 80s) DeLuxe Hollywood prints I have seen can have both Academy and SMPTE leaders on different reels of the same print!


Other labs that normally use Academy leaders for release prints do use SMPTE leaders for non-release elements like workprints and some types of dailies (yes I have seen dailies reels with leaders).


-Aaron

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2002 10:36 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the old carbon-arc days, it was the thing to do to rack on #7, 8, or 9....depending on how fast your projectors could come up to speed before change-over. The normal reaction time to initiate the motor cue and changeover cue depended on your reflexes......and if you had a new print and knew your machines and your own limitations, you could make a practically seamless change-over on a consistant basis. (Part of showmanship, if memory serves me correctly.)

However, if it is a real garbage movie, I have been known to rack on 3, force myself into an early change-over, and beat the meter maid to the car.


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-27-2002 10:37 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen prints with a mix of different types of leaders on different reels, although it seems to happen more with 16mm prints than 35mm.

"Men With Guns" had SMPTE leaders and, I think, "Red Violin" did as well. Other than that, I can't remember any recent titles that didn't have the Academy (footage) countdown.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 01-27-2002 10:44 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about the threading leader we attach to the beggining of our prints? Those also have the numbers spaced at 16 frames, and I never could understand why! I usually thread so that 8 or 9 is in the aperture. For a seven second delay, it works perfectly.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2002 10:50 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, if you ever ran a manual changeover house, you would very quickly discover those numbers on the leaders area a very valuable commodity if used correctly.


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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 01-27-2002 11:15 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have never run changovers. I am curious. Please explain.

When running changeovers, don't you use the head leader that comes on the reel? Why wouldn't they make the threading leader that we platter people use with the numbers 1 second apart?

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2002 11:38 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken:

The answer to your first question is "yes" in most cases.

The answer to your second question is basically, "Who cares?". as long as one knows what the projection rate is. Most of us in the olden days went by footage instead of seconds. Serves the same purposes. Just a different reference.

I have seen some "second" count-down leaders, but personally, I never did like them. It was, in my mind, like GM vs. Ford. Ford had a better idea, except their light bulb burned out years ago...


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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-28-2002 02:16 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken: the number of frames between the 'start' frame and the first picture frame on an Academy leader (I think it's 168 but that's probably wrong) is exactly the same as the number of frames between the two sets of cue dots on the end of a reel (if they're printed in the right place). So theoretically you lace up the incoming reel with the word 'start' in the gate. But of course that assumes that the motor of the incoming projector runs at full speed from the moment you switch it on, which of course none do. So to compensate for the ramping time, you would, in a typical changeover house (as Paul points out), lace the leader down a bit further. In most of the places I worked it was somewhere between 10 and 7, but of course that depends on the individual projector and motor.


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-28-2002 03:42 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Paul G said, it really is of no consequence if the sync leader has the countdown numbers spaced in seconds or feet, they are just reference numbers so that the outgoing projector syncs correctly with the incoming projector. The reason I dislike both the SMPTE versions is because they were really designed for TV operation and not theatrical projection. They eliminated one of the features of the Academy leader: the very distinct divisions between the numbers -- the totally black frames contrasting with the transparent number frames. It is always very easy in manual operation to find the number you are looking for because of this obvious visual differentiation. The diamond frame even facilitates racking on frames that are somewhere in between numbers (one booth here requires racking up 4 frames before #9 for near frame-perfect change-overs). With the SMPTE leaders, every frame is the exactly the same density with no distinction between them so you need to look carefully at the leader to find your correct startup frame. With the SMPTE leaders you need to go hunting for a particular slice of the clock to approximate that same distance as the Academy number. What makes it worse, the labs never seem to follow a standard for either density or color with SMPTE leaders; I've seen leaders that vary from almost transparent density to almost opaque, where you couldn't see the numbers or the clock unless you held it up to a bright light -- very inconvenient and prone to error. I always re-mark (as I have seen many other projectionists do) numbers [10], [9] and [8] on equivalent frames. Also, there doesn't seem to be any particular uniformity as to the color of the SMPTE leaders -- I have seen everything from deep blue to a kind of dirty, splotchy pink. I would have thought a leader designed by THE standards organization would have created a standard for the color and density of its own leader.

Another disadvantage of the SMPTE leaders in manual operation is that the uniform density does not allow the projectionist to see the "flashes" as the transparent number frames roll through the aperture. We old change-over guys relied on the flashes to mentally count down with the leader and to know to open the dowser after number three flashes. With the uniform density of the SMPTE, there is no flash and with the leaders that are printed very densely, you need to put a piece of artist's tape after number two as your cue to open the dowser. With the leaders that are printed very light, you have to be very careful NOT to open the dowser until the leader passes because it doesn't go to black after number 2, but says that light color right up until the first frame of the film -- open the dowser a second before, and you wind up getting a bright screen of color rather than black. The SMPTE leaders eliminated these visual cues that facilitated good showmanship in theatrical operation and which were part of the Academy leader. Rather it created a need for some sort of additional, projectionist-added cues.

I know in the early seventies, when manual change-over booths were still quite prevalent, projectionists that I knew all had the same feeling about the SMPTE leaders -- no one liked them for the above reasons. Some actually felt that the SMPTE had abandoned theatrical needs for the needs of television (TV people hated the Academy leader because the transparent number frames, coming after 15 frames of total black, reeked havoc on the plumbicon tubes in telecine cameras -- what they needed was a neutral density leader which they got in the SMPTE Universal).

I think sometime back then I wrote to the SMPTE suggesting that "universality" shouldn't be a goal in and of itself and to admit that it just doesn't work with such divergent needs of exhibition and television; I suggested that there should be a leader specifically tailored for each application rather than one which ignores the needs of one or the other -- in this case, specifically ignoring theatrical exhibition. The suggestions were printed, but the leader stood. A lot of booth guys felt that the SMPTE had abandoned their needs on this one, especially after it was learned that the TV guys on the leader committee were originally pushing hard to make the leader even shorter than the 8 seconds because in TV operation, they don't need to worry about projectors "getting up to speed." Thankfully that idea was voted down. The fact is that the studios never really embraced the SMPTE sync leaders, I think because of these reasons, and the stalwart Academy leader is found on most major releases to this day, more than 30 years later.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-28-2002 11:08 AM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, I love those rare occasions when I do actually get a print with the "real" academy leader on it. I do run changeover and use those "flashes" whenever possible. I also aree with you about the 24 frame/count leader. The uniformity of all the frames make it more difficult to tell where you are in the leader and how soon you will have to open that douser.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-28-2002 12:32 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe Beres said: "I love those rare occasions when I do actually get a print with the "real" academy leader on it. I do run changeover and use those "flashes" whenever possible."

Film-Tech participant Jeffry L. Johnson and Jess Daily of the UCLA Film Archive developed standard SMPTE 301 for the new Theater Projection Leader. The black frames are specified as being a neutral density greater than 1.95, and there is a "flash" for each footage number counting down from "11" to "3", just like the original "Academy" leader. The standard also specifies the identification information to be printed on the leaders, and the size and position of the cue marks.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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