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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Pro-35 film shaking on screen (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Pro-35 film shaking on screen
Josh Mitoska
Film Handler

Posts: 59
From: Brooklyn, MI, USA
Registered: Dec 2001


 - posted 01-07-2002 03:13 AM      Profile for Josh Mitoska   Email Josh Mitoska   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I so wish I could afford new projectors! Can anyone give me some pointers? One of my 3 great Ballantyne Pro-35's has the film shaking on the screen quite badly. If I adjust the framer all the way up or down it helps a little. Everything is clean.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-07-2002 07:23 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Time to replace the framing coupler.......
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-07-2002 09:02 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, if the picture is moving vertically, then you do have a bad framing coupler. This is a common failure on Ballantynes.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 09:13 AM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a pair of those Ballantyne's here, and Richard and Ken are most likely correct. The framing coupler has a plastic part that looks like two wheels held together by four shafts (forming a sort of cylinder shape.) One by one, over time, these shafts break, and as more break, the picture becomes more unsteady. If your image is quite unsteady, and I'm guessing it is, you have at least two of those shafts broken, and that coupler will need to be replaced. If you need to keep running before you can replace the part, try running film with the framing lever in different positions. Sometimes you can find a "sweet spot" of sorts that will steady the image a bit more. Good luck!

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Randy Bowden
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 01:15 PM      Profile for Randy Bowden   Email Randy Bowden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Check to see if the framing knob is vibrating, usually when the coupler is bad it will. If you feel no vibration what so ever and the picture is just as jumpy no matter what position the framing knob is in then you most likely need another intermittent. Another thing to check is the outboard bearing on the intermittent sprocket assy. There is a knurled nut that makes direct contact with that bearing. Put your fingers on it and feel for vibrations. excessive vibration on the outboard usually is a symptom of a bad coupler or a bad outboard bearing, or both!! If your coupler is bad, request a 2 perf coupler instead of a four perf. That means you get twice as much plastic in the coupler bobin, and hopefully it will last longer.

Good luck!

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 05:44 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes any of the above mentioned things can cause the problem. I used to work with pro 35's for 7 1/2 years. Also depending on the amount of jump check your lateral guide pad in the gate trap and make sure that there is no dirt build up and no deep grooves developing. You can rotate those pads eight times 4 0n each side. Also check gate tension.

But most likely it is the plastic Bobbin that has worn out. Also there is an adjustment on the intermitents that moves the shaft up against the star shaft. Make sure this little knob has not become loose and worked it's self out. This can cause jumping problems also and the projector will run louder than normal.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 07:15 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with the coupler being shot. Also, place your fingers on the outboard bearing arm, and if it feels like it is hammering, the bearing is also worn out.

When you replace the coupler, be sure to loosen the framing drag plug. If you fail to do so, you may damage the coupler you are trying to install. This plug is located in the rear fo the projector casting. If you never changed one before, I would advise checking the manual.

Josh, is your gate tension correct? That adjustment will also work loose from time to time, and give you a very nasty picture jump on the screen.


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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 07:23 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why would you want new machines? Pro 35's are a great machine, their only weak point being the framing coupler. outside of that from what I've heard they are damn close to indestructable. also because of the larger star and cam in the machine, picture registration is usually quite better that say simplex built today. it is impossible to burn up the shutters, but they will warp slightly. they are also quiet as a mouse. When Paul was out here over christmas, he said our Kodak 285 16mm machine runs about as quiet as his pro-35's. thats pretty quiet!!

Josh

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-07-2002 08:51 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, I'll put a Simplex intermittent up against most anything. At least one properly adjusted.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-07-2002 09:04 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"My Pro 35 is shaking up and down......"
They're supposed to!

Just kidding........Its a long running joke actually that started at Moyer Theatres years ago. They also called it the "Original Rock And Roll projector" too.

Actually if you replace the coupler also replace the outboard bearing, no matter what, its felt dust cap, and any other hardware you may need to at that time. Be careful putting the new coupler onto the spleens. The new one WILL be more difficult to mate to them than pulling the old worn one off. We stock all these parts if you need them.

Josh,
Pro 35's are good runners but VERY expensive to repair when something does really go wrong. The big deal with them is that after about 12 to 15 years the machines HAVE to be rebuilt as the seals wear out and the O rings suffer from compression set. This necessitates a complete tear down. New sprocket shafts, shutter shafts, etc are really costly for this machine. I've also seen quite a few broken star wheels in these machines as well. Some will keep going even with it broken, but when it piles up the movement parts are well over a grand alone. The new star is webbed, but I've seen em break too. Ususlly the shutter gear, and intermittent drive gears strip as well when this happens I don't hold a thing against them, they are great machines, and 15 years is a long time. But just be prepared to spend alot to get what has to be put into them for another 15 years of service.

Steve,
Actually the newer X-L movements are no wheres near as good as the older ones were. The cam, especially, is no longer made with the extreme accuracy that the old ones were. Simplex had a nack for doing these critical parts exactly. right. The older ones that had the cam radius screwed down with allen screws were the best units made! The metals were also harder too. I've tested the hardness of many newer and older components myself!
Personally I'd take a Century C or SA movement any day over anything else(Except Kinoton). I can rebuild em and hand fit all the bushings, etc perfectly, and they are usually dead steady, much steadier by comparison than a factory X-L. The Century gate also has more going for it IMHO.
MArk @ GTS


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 09:43 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Mark.

I never had any major problems with my PRO-35's. I found them easy to work on, the seals and bearings can be obtained for practically peanuts from the local bearing shop. (including the outboard bearing which costs about 6 bucks or so.) Seals are about a 1.50.

I changed one intermittant in 22 years, and that was because some doofus rammed the adjustment tight with a pair of vice-grips and screwed up the ball in the movement. When that happened, the starwheel came in contact with a portion of the cam that it was not supposed to.

I changed one shutter gear in the last 10 years, and that was because the shutter snagged a wire feeding the CO douser. I never had to change a vertical shaft, but I did have to change a couple of the older sprocket shafts because of oil seal wear.

Some of the real old Pro-35's had some soft shafts, and the oil seals did cut into them.

I find Pro-35 parts are cheap to maintain, as compared to others. I defend Ballentyne PRO-35's, they can be fixed with a screwdriver and a hammer.

Yes, they do leak oil. So does a Simplex. So does a Brenkert. So does those damn Centurys that have flakey movements.

I'll take a factory spec Pro-35 with the new gate over a factory spec XL or Century anytime.

I changed out 5 Cineshitties with Pro-35's in Post Falls, Idaho and the kids love those things. All the Cineshitties I took out of service came to pass because the movements were run without oil, and they burned up.

Paul


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-07-2002 09:58 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

I'll stand by what I said...I'll take an XL intermittent over a Century and just about any other...I've had no steadiness problem out of them and the service life of Simplex intermittent due to it's operation in an oil bath seem to be a bout 10:1 over others.

As to gate design, the Century JJ is much better than the SA which looks like someone guessed, got it wrong and then fixed it. About the only draw back to the Simplex gate was the fixed intermittent shoe. Strong has now fixed that so that the shoe can have a perfect fit to the intermittent which will dramatically increase steadiness. The Century was clearly designed by someone that liked fixing things.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-07-2002 10:25 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve said:

The Century was clearly designed by someone that liked fixing things.

.........................................................................

LMAO! Right on the money, Steve!

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Don Sneed
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Texas City, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 01-08-2002 06:27 AM      Profile for Don Sneed   Author's Homepage   Email Don Sneed   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Josh, it is like everyone said, the coupler and/or intermittent may be bad....it took me 20-years to learn this but if you and your projection staff will not use the framing handle each time to frame the picture, learn to have the intermittent in the stop position & frame the feature in frame each time without using the framing, the Ballentyne machine will last for years before this problem comes up again, the problem is framingm Ballantyne machines do not like to be frame, I had a problem at a 6-screen theatre, all ,machines was being rebuild every year, I had the projection staff to do this, it has been over three years now, I have not replace a coupler or intermittent there, they all frame the picture in frame everytime, I have been told they do not use the framing now, all problems went away !!

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-08-2002 03:50 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don Sneed is absolutely correct. Keep your paws off the framing knob, and that pro-35 will run for years!!!!! Thread the machine in frame like it is supposed to be.


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