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Author Topic: Unfortunate evidence of 'Film Done Wrong'
Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 11:23 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having just browsed the 'aus.dvd' and 'aus.films' newsgroups, there was a thread about people's experiences seeing 'Lord of the Rings' on either the opening or the second day of release.

Sadly, it would seem that something has gone very wrong at certain theatres. Comments included the following:

'Fantastic film, epic atmosphere...loved it. Just one thing...after seeing the clarity of DVD, I've started to notice how images at my local cinema seem grainy and exhibit washed-out colours...even blur at times...now it might be that my local cinema is sucky, anybody else notice how DVD brings up images so much nicer? These comments refer directly to Mummy Returns and Final Fantasy...both of which looked much better on DVD. Of course can't compare LOTR on DVD...yet.'

This garnered the response of:

'I've noticed this too. Projectors are no match to a digital format...which has to (project) the image across a large room onto a dirty screen'.

and this:

'There were battle scenes and in-close fighting scenes in the movie which I found hard to watch in the cinema, but which looked fantastic on the trailer I downloaded. I think the DVD will be a lot better than watching it at the cinema'.

to which this was said:

'I agree - I was up the front of the cinema unfortunately...I think the combo of (major cinema chain) and (their branding of 'stadium seating/digital sound/large screens) didn't do it justice...roll on the DVD!'

or:

'Yeah, those long shots were blurry at times. The specs of dirt or little glitches are a bit annoying when you're used to DVD, not to mention the cigarette burns in the corner, but the clarity is still way ahead of DVD, especially when you consider the size of the screen'.

'35MM projectors are the hardest things to get focussed, they really annoy me. Films look focussed, and then the credits come up all blurry. Bring on digital projection I say!'

'...that's where I saw LOTR. It's certainly a much better cinema than (alternate location), but after watching movies on DVD I could notice the cigarette burns and scratches on the big screen more than ever.'

-----------------
Those are the comments thus far, and that's after the film has been open for two days, and not even two whole days at that.

When I see posts like this, I try to reply and explain that it is not the fault of the film medium itself, and that 'Film Done Right' cannot be beat (as I did with this thread). Regrettably, they may have to take my word for it, as they are not experiencing this for themselves. Also, I've been responding to these sorts of posts for ages now, but I simply cannot keep up! In spite of the fact that some of the comments contain misinformation and technical errors, the fact remains that this is what they perceive, and it will affect their decision to visit a cinema. If they were shown an excellent presentation each time they visited a theatre, all this would fail to be an issue. In fact, they would actually look forward to seeing future releases on the big screen rather than actually preferring a DVD of the film.

The theatre John Wilson and I work at have featured excellent presentations of LOTR, and will quite happily continue to do so for the next six months if required! No-one who sees it there would be less than impressed, and they certainly would not be capable of such remarks. However, these sorts of comments - even though they stem from other theatres - are the result of poor presentations that will hurt the industry as a whole. What can be done?


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 01:56 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sad; what can one say? Film done right looks better than anything else; Done wrong, can look worse than a VCR.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-28-2001 03:10 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Film Done Right" is more important than ever, yet fewer and fewer theatres do it right. I've said it before: "home theatres" ARE the real competition, and the only way to survive is to offer a wonderful movie-going experience that can't be matched in the home.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-28-2001 03:27 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Solutions:

1--Pay employees well to keep the good ones. People who think staff and projectionists are expendable are morons. That's right, if you think that, then I am calling YOU a moron! It is good business sense to keep the good employees and pay them to stay. Reward the ones who care about their job. Give them a reason to care!

2--Companies like THX should follow up on their certified theaters. It seems anyone can easily get a THX certification so the in house tech can retune the auditoriums. I have heard many awful and many excellent THX rooms, even in the same complex with equally sized auditoriums. It is inconsistent at best. THX doesn't mean anything if it is going to be inconsistent. But sadly they only seem to care if they get their annual pay, or at least that's the way it seems.

3--Send me money for no reason. Lots of it. That'll make every theater a success and also make me very happy, which is the most important thing in anybody's book. DVD will fail and people will only want to see movies in the cinema if you do this.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-28-2001 03:40 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Next time one of these idiots start in with the whole DVD is better/film is too dark argument, remind them that the video they are watching is altered and tweeked in many ways (such as contrast compression). Also, if you were to shrink a 35mm image down to a 35 inch image, suddenly I don't think they would be too pleased with their little DVDs. Offer for them to bring up a DVD and a video projector into your largest auditorium after hours. People are stupid. (And that includes the people Joe speaks of above.)

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Paul Cassidy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 549
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 12-28-2001 04:14 PM      Profile for Paul Cassidy   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Cassidy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes I would say that parts of the film LOTR were grainy (maybe for a Artistic Purpose) but other parts were crystal clear ,could be so that the CGI would not stand out so much ? but I was impressed with the overall clarity of the film and lack of scratches and change over ques , a seamless presentation with no annoying jumps and bangs at splices ,someone is starting to listen .I have a 3gun CRT at home on a 12ft screen and anamorphic with a Pioneer DVD and I'm sure even with anamorphic on ,I could not come close to what I saw on 35 mil. Film at the cinema ,as long as they keep focusing on the presentation,with my Carbon Arc set up I would wait for a noisy part of the film to fire up the Lamphouse and also flick to non-sync at splices (adds and trailers) so that there is no noise at those times ,DTS discs have got rid of this normal noise we used to put up with a Complexs but others have let the side down with incorrect Aspect, poor focus ,sound toooo LOUD on trailers ,poor splices and damaged prints .


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-28-2001 05:01 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What I've noticed with my DVD setup is that because it's letter boxed the whole picture is pretty small. To be able to see any detail I have to move my comfy chair up to within about 4 ft of the 27" tv screen. At that range you start to see more defects. And cigarette burns? Do they mean change over marks? If they aren't seeing them on their dvds then they aren't seeing the whole picture because of cropping, right? Washed out look? Surely they realize that this was done on purpose? You know, artistic effect? How dumb are these guys.
I was once standing at the counter at the local Suncoast video store and this lady was in front of me was checking out. The check out guy said that he had the title she was buying in the letter boxed version and she replied that she "didn't like it when they cut off the top and bottom of the picture like that" He tried to explain the reality of the situation to her but she wouldn't hear it. I guess he was watching me roll my eyes behind her, as he was having a hard time not laughing and kept scratching his nose etc. to cover up the smile that was starting to break out. People are just really stupid. Those morons will get what they deserve, but meanwhile they will drag us all down with them. It's scary

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 12-28-2001 05:04 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Next time one of these idiots start in with the whole DVD is better/film is too dark argument, remind them that the video they are watching is altered and tweeked in many ways (such as contrast compression). Also, if you were to shrink a 35mm image down to a 35 inch image, suddenly I don't think they would be too pleased with their little DVDs. Offer for them to bring up a DVD and a video projector into your largest auditorium after hours. People are stupid. (And that includes the people Joe speaks of above.)

Think about it this way: a scope movie on DVD can only have a maximum resolution of 720 by 357, due to the letterboxing required even on anamorphically encoded DVDs. On a standard "large" screen of size 40 feet by 17 feet, even if projected with perfect digital clarity, the pixels would be rectangles two thirds of an inch by four sevenths of an inch. Those pixels would probably be discernable even from the auditorium rear.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-28-2001 06:35 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone actually tried using a portable video projector (LCD, CRT, or otherwise) in a full-size theatre? How did it look? I assume that it would be pretty bad (probably far worse than a 35mm print transferred from video), but I'm not really sure.

I have used portable 16mm projectors in theatres. For the most part, it works. The older B&H 100- and 300- series machines will take 1000-watt bulbs which give dim but watchable pictures. MARC-300 projectors are much better. The limiting factor seems to be brightness and lens quality, not resolution.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-28-2001 06:43 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes I've seen it done. Only the latest model video projectors seem to do a somewhat decent job (the very bright ones), but definitely not on much larger than a 40 foot screen. There is no comparison. The DVD is a joke.

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Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 12-28-2001 06:52 PM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This should be the wake up call that we all knew was coming. If you are projecting the film as "film done wrong" you must notify management what needs to be done to correct and have "film done right."

Pass the lead thread into the main office and let them know they are refering to your theatre. People who care will take corrective measures and shortly you will be running "film done right."

I would be interested to hear their reactions.


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-28-2001 07:17 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think some of the folks making the "DVD is better than film" argument are very obviously trolls and nothing more.

Sure, a poorly adjusted projector (out of focus, dim bulb, etc.) will do a terrible disservice to the quality of the show. Good 35mm projection on an appropriately sized screen (not something nearing IMAX size) will be better than DVD every time. The image is a lot bigger and sharper.

The only area where home theater can compete against commercial cinema is in sound quality. And that is only if you spend some serious money and put some good thought into the setup.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 07:34 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But we are preaching to the choir here, guys. We all know that film will blow the socks off consumer video and, IMHO, even the super-hyped DLP that I have seen is STILL inferior to film. But we have to listen to what the layman out there is saying. He's saying his EXPERIENCE is that his DVD images look better than what he experiences in the cinema. What does that tell us who know how good film can look, about what's going on in theatres? You can't argue with his perception. You can't tell him not to believe his eyes and he doesn't care one iota about the technical reasons why images that he pays $8 to $10 to see in a theatre look like crap -- no matter what the reasons, crap still looks like crap. He doen't want to have the economics explained to him of why a theatre is buring its xenon bulb 300 hours past its rated life. Which one of us won't agree that cinema presentation today, especially in certain parts of the country, doesn't come close to anything film is capable of? And there is no sign of it getting better either.

When one of those "morons" says he sees a cleaner, "better" image in his home theatre on his wide ratio plasma screen, and then you find out that managment in so-called first-run 70mm cinemas have eliminated a trained, licensed projectionist from the booth and limited his workhours to 20 hrs, one day a week, you have to say, well, yah, the moron is right, because the theatre is being run by morons.

I don't want to be redundant about this 70mm presentation of 2001:ASO which I saw last week at the Loews' Astor Plaza in NYC as I have posted it before, but it was a TERRIBLE, disappointing show -- dirty print (Warners told me this theatre was the FRIST one to play this particular print), awful flutter in the sound (almost unlistenable), scratches and NO INTERMISSION. And this, mind you, in a TOP market (NYC), in a high-profile "flagship" theatre. It was here that I found out that the only person in the booth was this kid whose job it was to switch to the "small" film in case the "big" film "jumps out;" they were running a 35mm print along with the 70mm -- both on platters -- and evidently had so much trouble with the 70mm that they kept this high school kid up there to switch to the 35mm backup if the 70 "jumped out." I never got an explanation from him as to what exactly happened when the 70mm print "jumped out," but I shudder to think, but have to assume it was a brainwrap or something just as drastic. And this, in what only a few years ago was one of THE premiere cinemas to go to in NYC if you wanted to see a state-of-the-art, first-class presentation.

To the average Joe, suffering through that kind of $10-a-pop disappointment a bunch of times, why wouldn't he prefer his own home setup? And let's face it -- he's the one who is driving the industry. If the Hollywood bean-counters and market analyzers see theatre revenue continuing on the decline because Joe Moron prefers the environment of his own home cinema to see their product, then Hollywood is simply going to bypass the cinema and sell their product directly to him via DVD, HD pay-per-view, whatever, to get it into his home theatre where he is quite vocal about it being his prefered place for viewing it.

Warner Brothers spends $27,000 on a 70mm print of 2001 only to have it damaged by a theatre where the general public is saying the presentation stinks. How long do we think that can go on before the ball game is over? We are already in the 9th inning and the theatre owners don't seem to appreciate how close to loosing the game they (and we) are.



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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 07:59 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To answer Scott's question, at the Brooklyn Museum we use a high-end Proxima which we rent for film festivals where a number of the submissions are on video, usually on DigiBeta and we shown some DVD features with it. Now, I have to admit, it is still lowrez (NTSC, no HD here) and it has none of the so-called advances like progressive scan. But it is near their top-of-the-line, before you start to get into DLP. I am not sure what the screen brightness is (the video industry uses lumens rather than foot lambers so I can't even tell you how it would compair to what we would consider a normal cinema image, but I can tell you it is nowhere NEAR 16ftL). I can say that this isn't one of those cheaper unit table-top units that are commonly used for computer presentations -- this Proxima goes for something like $15,000 -$20,000 and is a BIG unit. We are filling a 13ftx17ft screen. What does it look like? The contrast/dynamic range is NOWHERE. Fill the top part of the picture with a light sky and anything else in the frame that is dark just looses all detail and turns to globs of black. We also project 16mm using an Eastman 25B (BEST 16mm projector ever made) with a Xetron 2000w xenon behind it(and plenty of heat filters); the 16mm blows the video TOTALLY out of the water in terms of brightness and clarity of detail. And personally, give me grain over aliasing artifacs and electronic video sizzle any day.

So saying that even *16mm* looks dramatically better than high-end consumer projection NTSC video pretty much wraps it up as far as video projection is concerned. We have only one course of action -- disconnection. It would be a bit tricky. We would have to disconnect his higher functions..... ooops, sorry. 2001 is still fresh in my mind.

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Jon Miller
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 973
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 09:02 PM      Profile for Jon Miller   Email Jon Miller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another answer to Scott's question...it has been done at the Mann Hazard Center 7 (see the Picture Warehouse for a look-see) as well, for special screenings and film festivals. I have gotten passable results with a Hitachi LCD XGA computer projector, an older OEM version of the Proxima DP6850+, placed above the entry alcove in Screen 6 and fed by a consumer Sony VHS deck. The only problem is that the lens cannot be zoomed down enough to fit the image on the screen, which results in the loss of about 10% off the top and bottom of the picture. (Yes, I know, "video done wrong." )

Film, it ain't; considering the circumstances, it could have been worse...for a film festival last September, the organizers got enough in terms of sponsorship for Christie Roadster DLP projectors and Sony Betacam decks for all three screens the festival used. This would have been an excellent setup for video. However, the rental firm providing the equipment was unable to come up with the appropriate lenses to handle the throws and had to use the digital scaling "feature" to fit the image on the screen, creating an image that looked as if it was out of focus and was consequently painful to watch (we did receve a few complaints from the customers). Needless to say, this was a major disappointment, considering I could get better results from a conference-room-type LCD projector and a lowly VHS VCR.

I agree with Frank...16mm on a good xenon (or carbon-arc, for that matter) projector, such as the Elmo we used or an Eiki EX-4000P I recently acquired and tested at that theatre, looks a heck of a lot better (since film festivals are my specialty, whevever there are mixed formats I insist video be shown first, then 16mm next, then 35mm last, not only for logistical reasons but also for the progression of quality). But whoever said that video looks better than our beloved 35mm, properly projected, didn't have a good set of eyes.


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