Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "amelie" subtitles out of focus? (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: "amelie" subtitles out of focus?
Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 12-18-2001 05:31 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On our print of "amelie" our subtitles appear out of focus, i can focus the subtitles sharp but then the film itself is too soft, so, i'm having to compromise and settle in between, which i'm not pleased about!.
i went to our other location screening "amelie" and they have the very same problem!.
is any one else having the same problem?.
i'm going to call the distributer tomorrow to let them know.

 |  IP: Logged

Dick Vaughan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1032
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 12-18-2001 05:56 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Our print of Amelie copy number 0835 also had soft printed sub titles so it looks like it's probably a general thing. Sod's law dictates that the most popular foreign language titles have the worst subtitles.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 12-18-2001 06:32 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi dick, thank's for your reply. i guess that not much will be acheived by notifiying the distributer, but i'll make sure that they are aware of the problem anyway. i had a customer come out and complain that i had it out of focus, so it's us that looks bad and not the people who printed it.

 |  IP: Logged

Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: New Jersey
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 12-18-2001 07:15 AM      Profile for Charles Everett   Email Charles Everett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
US prints of Amelie have this problem to an extent. On the print running in the AMC Hamilton, R1-R3 have subtitles that are clear and sharp; R4-R7 have subtitles that are soft-focus.

In the US most subtitled pictures carry an ID for the subtitling lab in the end credits. Amelie, though, does not have such an ID.

Then again Miramax is too busy buying Oscar nominations to pay close attention. Not to mention the fact Amelie is losing box office juice because Miramax refuses to expand it beyond 221 theaters.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-18-2001 08:01 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are several methods of making subtitles:

1. They can be optically or digitally printed, such that they are part of the duplicate negative used for release printing.

2. They can be "bi-pack" printed, where the subtitles are printed from a separate B&W negative "sandwiched" with the picture negative.

3. They can be "chemically etched" on the film, using a bleach solution controlled by a wax stencil coated on the processed print, and later removed.

4. Laser subtitles use a high powered laser to burn away the print film emulsion in the lettered area.

Method 1 usually produces sharp titles, since the subtitles are actually part of the image on the printing negative. Method 2 may be less sharp, since you are printing through two thicknesses of film. Methods 3 and 4 may focus differently, since the picture is contained within the emulsion, and the titles are bare film base.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-18-2001 08:55 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also some of the older subtitles were done with a vibrating needle machine that was connectd to a crude form of typsetter
Typically the etched style will always have focus problems

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Sauter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 163
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 12-20-2001 12:08 PM      Profile for Tom Sauter   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Sauter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you're lucky enough to have a good throw angle you can minimize this effect (the majority of films I screen are foreign and have laser subtitles). Our throw angle allows us to focus very nicely on center and the subtitles at the same time. I have also tilted the screen ever so slightly to improve on this.


 |  IP: Logged

Danny Hart
Film Handler

Posts: 50
From: St Andrews, Scotland
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-20-2001 07:01 PM      Profile for Danny Hart   Email Danny Hart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We had focus problems with this film, too. But I blame this on our head projectionist. He insists that every screen is as bright as possible, completely ignoring the standards. I actually find them annoyingly bright, to the point where watching for too long gives me a headache. When I turned them down, he turned them back up and I was told never to interfere with them again.

I fould the overall focus on Amelie was greatly improved when it moved to our hall with the lowest brightness - which is still above the standard (and as high as he can push it.) It was actually a great print and looked superb when shown in this way.

A bit off-topic, but I showed a subtitled film recently (can't remember what it was, but it wasn't a new film) and the subtitles had a major flaw - they were pure white text, which meant if there was, for example, a close-up of someone speaking who was wearing a white shirt, the subtitles disappeared into the shirt and couldn't be read. I would have thought a basic rule of subtitling would be white text with a black outline, which would make it visible on ANY background.

 |  IP: Logged

Joseph Pandolfi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Milford, CT.
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-21-2001 07:27 AM      Profile for Joseph Pandolfi   Email Joseph Pandolfi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have one of the eariler releases (#43) and we have no problems with the subtitles. We have been running it now for about 6 weeks. I agree with Danny above me about the letters disappearing in the white areas.


 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 12-23-2001 07:12 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Getting a little off-topic, but:
quote:
He insists that every screen is as bright as possible, completely ignoring the standards. I actually find them annoyingly bright, to the point where watching for too long gives me a headache.
Is that due to it being so bright that the 48Hz flicker becomes visible enough to cause eye strain? Maybe if all the projectors had triple-bladed shutters that wouldn't be a problem?

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-27-2001 01:20 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron Haney asked: "Is that due to it being so bright that the 48Hz flicker becomes visible enough to cause eye strain? Maybe if all the projectors had triple-bladed shutters that wouldn't be a problem?"

Yes, a three-blade shutter would raise the flicker rate to 72 interruptions per second, so flicker would be much less of an issue if the screen luminance was too high. But going above the 22 footlambert limit specified by standard SMPTE 196M will also change the appearance of the print from what was approved by the director and cinematographer --- highlights will be brighter, colors more saturated, and you may see details in the shadows that you were not meant to see:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/spring98/pointers.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/march2000/pytlak.shtml

The bottom line: try to maintain a screen luminance close to 16 footlamberts, which is how the prints were intended to be shown.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-28-2001 06:59 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Even though we encounter all the different subtitling methods that John mentioned, the etched ones are always the best in terms of their never being washing out no matter how white the image is. This is because even though an area in the image may indeed seem "white," the light is still passing through how ever little emulsion is still there; the laser or bleach burns away that layer and it will always be "whiter" than the whitest image made by the emulsion.

I used to think, "how nice, subtitles to get an easy, perfect focus." Doesn't quite work that way with the etched subtitles. I discovered that you can focus the subtitles and find the image soft. Obviously you want to focus the picture and let the subtitles fall where they may. How much of a disparity between the hard focal point of the image and that of the etched subtitles will depend on the depth-of-field of your optical system.

In a house with a short throw and large screen, the problem can be quite sever. Theatres with moderately sized screens and longer throws have a optical system that is more at the center of the optimum curve and will not experience these focus problem -- even warped film can be focused. These are the theatres where you can rack the focus knob back and forth and see practically no change because there is a steep depth-of-field -- the lens is focusing in front and in back of the exact point of the film. But in theatres where the depth-of-field is shallow, there is only ONE place where you get perfect focus....not a micro before it or behind it. With those systems, just the difference in the thickness of the emulsion is enough to kick the subtitles out of focus.

Danny hinted on something though -- the amount of light passing through the lens can affect depth-of-field; you can improve the depth-of-field by increasing the gross light output of the lamphouse and then irising down the lens opening, much like you increase the depth-of-field in a camera by stopping down the lens. I saw this done once to amazing effect. He was trying to compensate for a print with some serious warpage. He cut a circle out of piece of "black wrap" and put this on the casing of the rear end of the lens. He experimented with the size of the hole and after a lot of hit and miss, he was able to strike a balance between cutting back the light and increasing the depth-of-field so that the focus problem, while it didn't totally disappear on some of the really badly warped reels, it made a decided difference for most of the show.

What I could never understand is why they just don't print the subtitles in the wasted black area below the image. Seems to me that would eliminate a host of problems. You could use the printing method to make your subtitles rather than etching -- no focus problems, they would always be in focus because they are in the same emulsion position as the image....also, there wouldn't be any image movement distracting the eye while it's trying to read them -- just nice white text on a black background.

But then again, I also can't understand why they are subtitles to begin with. In a theatre the bottom of the screen is the most difficult to see. Why aren't they SUPERtitles -- put them at the top of the screen....again in the wasted black area. But that would be thinking a bit TOO far out of the box, eh?

 |  IP: Logged

Peter Berrett
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-30-2001 07:39 PM      Profile for Peter Berrett   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Berrett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here in Australia our multicultural station (SBS) does a lot of subtitling.

Their policy is to put the subtitles in yellow which is much clearer to read. Films are shown on standard tv in their full aspect ratio thus leaving black bars top and bottom. SBS puts the subtitles in the lower black bar which makes for better enjoyment of the film.
I might as well click on this link

It is a bit galling that in this day of high technology, digital prints etc one still goes to a see a Teletota subtitled film and struggles to see the words because the white subtitles get lost in the background. Would it be so technologically difficult to develop a low cost projection system to display subtitles immediately below the picture frame? The system could read digitally encoded subtitles from the soundtrack or from some other encoding method. I think that this would significantly improve viewing pleasure of foreign films.

How many times have you struggled to read the subtitles on a foreign film because they blended in with the background?

cheers Peter



 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-30-2001 08:20 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Peter Berrett asked: "Would it be so technologically difficult to develop a low cost projection system to display subtitles immediately below the picture frame? The system could read digitally encoded subtitles from the soundtrack or from some other encoding method. I think that this would significantly improve viewing pleasure of foreign films."

DTS already has such a system!:
http://www.dtsonline.com/cinema/dts-css.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-31-2001 04:39 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Seems like Dolby Digital and also SDDS could easily be adapted to this concept -- since both have time-code, that could easily be output to a computer that would contain the subtitle information and the time-code would cue it to display at the appropriately time via video projection. All this stuff is not even proprietary -- odinary PCs and video projectors. The nice thing about locating the actual text off the physical print, is that you can project it anywhere....ABOVE the image, below it... or take a cue from the Met and the text could be sent to LED displays on the seat backs like the system they have for the opera "supertitles."

DTS sure is an impressive system with so many ancillary applications. I hear they have already designed the DTS code to fit in the 16mm soundtrack. Now there's an idea, 6 channel digital sound with only the cost of a 16mm print -- and it could be shipped on a single reel -- no print makeup. Would work fine in 75% of the shopping mall miniplexes where the screen size doesn't need anything more than 16mm.

Wasn't there a project a few years back trying to use 16mm for those small theatres? Using Eastman 25B projectors with some souped up light and cooling. Problem back then was the sound. Problem solved.
And a souped up 25B is a lot cheaper than a DLP and so would go that big hallelulia about DLPs saving print cost and print shipping. You could print and ship a LOT of 16mm features before you would out-run the cost of a DLP system!

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.