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Topic: Fattening a "dished" print

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 11-12-2001 10:14 AM

I was reading Kodak's Seven Deadly Sins and one of the points is not to flatten a dished print because it will cause cinch mark scratches. Good point. I never thought of that. I have that happen to prints at my theatre. Any way to prevent it? And how would you get the clamps on to move the print without flattening it? thx.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-12-2001 10:48 AM

Perhaps a bit off topic, and you'd never do this with a rental print, but collectors routinely deal with cupped prints and they can be flattened without cinching. Basically, the process involves soaking the print for at least a week in a good, solvent type film cleaner (ON METAL REELS!). A number of collectors I know use Larry Urbansky's Film Renew (see his website--Urbansky Film and Video) as I do. After soaking--typically in a raw stock can-(and softening and remoisturizing the base), you dry the film gently with a cloth while winding, and tightly reverse wind it against the warp and allow it to flatten itself. It's a mess, uses a fair amount of solution, and takes some time and effort, but the results are frequently dramatic.

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 11-12-2001 11:38 AM

I would never flatten a dished print on a reel, especially if the roll is wound really tight. I have flattened out thousands of "platterized" prints and never seen the first cinch mark. And having been told that this would cinch my whole life, I always look for marks...no luck yet!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-12-2001 01:00 PM

Ken --- it sounds like you are having problems winding a flat roll on your platter. If this is a consistent problem, you may have very low humidity in the projection room causing excessive curl, the takeup tension is set incorrectly, or the film is not being properly guided at the point of takeup.

Jeff --- some cleaning solvents can have an adverse effect on the film and splices if they are not immediately removed. I'd hesitate recommending a one week soak in solvent. Why not just carefully rewind the print?

Wes --- you've been lucky not to get cinch marks. I suspect your rolls are not too uneven, so the amount of gentle correction needed to "flattened out" has been very small. The cinch marks will tend to be short and horizontal.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-12-2001 01:50 PM

Re: John Pytlak's comment about prolonged soaking and its affect on film and splices...1. My experience is that tight winding alone doesn't always do it, and a quick moistening with cleaners generally isn't enough, 2. I've used this method with older prints, including IB's, and have never had any damage to the film itself. I'm not suggesting that all cleaners are safe, but I do know from exprience that the one I mentioned is, 3. Splices are another matter--cement splices are fine, but tape splices will either fall apart or become stretched and hinged, and 4. I think I prefaced my suggestion with the context that it applies most to older prints where the problem is shrinkage rather than just storage or environmental conditions with new prints. I know it sounds unconventional, but I know literally dozens of collectors who have successfully treated warped, ribboned, or cupped prints this way.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-12-2001 04:55 PM

Ken, what kind of platters are you running? Do you run soundtrack up or down? I've seen this happen from a pad roller that was just barely too tight and ever so slightly damaged one corner of the sprockets. Have you also checked this? Also, is this first run or second run?

Also for a bit of clarification, when you say "dished" are you referring to dished in the fact that the center of the print raises enough to pull the center ring upward, away from the platter deck?

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 11-12-2001 06:32 PM

Brad,

I am running Teco platters at a first-run theatre. Soundtrack up. I have not checked any rollers. I have not checked anything yet because I had no idea what to suspect as the problem. But the print didn't seem to have any sprocket damage, and we have Kinoton projectors that don't have pad rollers, just those runners.

Yes, by dished I mean that the center of the print is raised up off the platter. But I have not seen any center rings being pulled up.

So how do I flatten it to get the clamps on without damaging the print?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-12-2001 07:12 PM

And what happens when you run a show soundtrack down? I would think that would force it flat in order to put the clamps on it. While I know that is not a real solution for something that is obviously a problem, it is at least something you can do on the run before you must move it. Just do be careful on the payout run of the film soundtrack down, for whenever I've occasionally ran a print soundtrack down it gave me fits on paying out that one next run. Several suction cups taped down around the print will suffice.

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