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Author Topic: Odd number of surrounds
Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-18-2001 06:40 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What's the best way to hook up three 8 ohm surrounds (per channel) to produce a load the surround amp won't fry over?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-18-2001 08:08 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
What type of surround amp do you have? Parallel is the best if your amp can do 2 ohms. If you can't drive 2 ohms then a resistor to make up the missimg 4th would be a good way. It will consume some of the power,probably 25%. It should be an 8 ohm 25 to 50 watt resistor. Another but sort of antiquated way is to use a matching transformer to deal with the impedance mismatch. Again,the transformer will soak up some of the power and the core might saturate trying to achieve realistic digital levels. Both E-V and Crown make large matching transformers. Personally I prefer the resistor as it does not add any inductance to the circuit if you use a high quality Dale 1% metal cased resistor. They can be gotten for about 20.00 new off the shelf. I'm not a big fan of series/parallel although on occasion its the only way you can do it. With the small number of speakers you have, the all parallel will yield better results. Also consider getting an additional speaker for each side. The more,the better. You can never have TOO many.
Mark @ GTS

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-18-2001 08:21 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark
It's a vintage SAE A202. 100w per Ch

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2001 08:17 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
For that particuluar amp, series parallel with the extra resistor making up the difference for the forth speaker would probably be the safest way to go. Those are good sounding amps but they don't like loads below 4 ohms either.
Mark @ GTS



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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2001 10:02 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like it may be time to consider upgrading the amplifier section.
The problem I'm trying to get away from is having the surrounds (I only have one on each side now) be directional (except when they're supposed to be). But, in a small screening room you run out of places to put speakers and if I were to put them to close (like right over head) it would (I think) again be directional. So I figured given my seating arrangement and wall space, 3 per side would work out.
Comments?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-19-2001 10:16 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
here is a thought.....If we are talking just mono surround effects not stereo surround. You could place two on the back wall equally spaced from the corners inward. place one in each corner and place one on each side....In a sense this should spread the surround out and creat less holes in the surround causing the phantom effect to shift and sound directional....This was my best setup I could get in my home theater sound system. For stereo surrounds the back wall speakers are less effective in small settins than they are in large settings....I took and fed my stereo surrounds into a stereo reciever running in three channel mode to eliminate the phantom effect and give it it's own center surround channel.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2001 10:32 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This would be stereo surrounds. I have this experiment I wanted to try, after I get this situation handled. I have this NEC surround genereator that I used to use before I got a CP unit. What I want to do is run the stereo surround signals in where the normal RL signals go in and have it generate a center channel. In this case it would (hopefully) generate a center surround channel, instaed of the center front channel it was designed to produce. I have some speakers mounted in the center of the back wall which have their own wiring running to them, for the job. I asked Brad about this once and he thought it would work. It's all(ways) a great experiment.

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

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From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-19-2001 05:28 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
if the nec surround generator was desighned to produce a center channel for the front channels this will work because all it is doing is feeding the mono signals that would appear in both left and right to the center......if it was only desighned to produce a surround channel off the left and right channels of a two channel stereo signal it will not work....it must be able to decode four channels....what I have done is take the left and right surround output cables and sent them to the prologic receiver that powers just the left center and right rear channels.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
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 - posted 10-19-2001 05:56 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
There are very few surround speakers available that are smallish. The JBL 3310 is small, 17 by 19 by 10, but you might want to look at something like the JBL Control series of speakers. The Control 1 is only 10 by 7 by 6 inches. These small speakers are in use in smaller screening rooms and work very well when there are enough of them. The main thing is to create as even a sound field as possible. This will eliminate the localization effect that you have now, and probably will still have to some extent from only three speakers per side. Even in a smaller room you really have to have rear speakers as well for this soundfield to work properly. The small size of the Control series will allow you to get in enough speakers, 6 to 8 per side, without them becomming an eyesore, or getting in the way. You would still need lots of power and a new amp might very well be in order for this too.
Mark @ GTS

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2001 06:18 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The NEC unit is really kind of trick and sometimes I like it better than the CP unit (but only sometimes). The way it is supposed to work is you put in the LR stereo signals in and generates Center (front) and stereo surrounds. Even if you feed in mono it sounds pretty neat and will give you surrounds. The part I really like was when I ran nonsync in. You got output from your full system. It has it's own pink noise generator, and a remote control so you could go sit in the audience and balance things the way you like. But that was yesterday. So now I'd like to hook it to the stereo surrounds and generate the center surround. I wonder if I have it in mono surrounds like in SR or A, if it will still generate a center surround

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-19-2001 07:07 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are trying to use the NEC unit as an EX processor, when you play analog material only the back wall "EX channel" speakers will play. The left and right surrounds will be dead.

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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-20-2001 07:44 AM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Seriously, I have never liked to serial wire speakers,or use series resistors with the circuit. Reason, it interferes with the power amp's damping factor. The damping is neccessairy to prevent woofers from nonlinear traveling, degrading the sound quality. It is sometime not economical to use extra power amps, but with 10 Ohm surrounds (also around), 5 can be paralleled to a single power amp, and normally this gives ample drive to each.
If you're using 4 Ohm amps, a matching Xformer is the better vway. To avoid those saturation and inductivity effects a high quality, large type is recommended to use, but can be as expensive as another power amp.
What to recommend to Greg, ... I do not know.

Stefan

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
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 - posted 10-20-2001 12:07 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stefan,
I really disagree with you about using matching transformers for surround speakers. There are several reasons why not to use them. First,
1, You say you want to maintain the usable damping factor of an amplifier....Using the transformer would lessen any benefits from a high damping factor just by inserting it in the circuit as you are now going through the transformer windings. Even with a very high quality transformer you could never maintain the original high damping factor. I might consider using an autoformer here but core saturation is still an issue at high levels and damping factor, which is not as critical an issue as some think is still lessened.

2, The transformer would have to be really large to be able to handle all the power required for digital levels, and not run into core saturation, especially at low frequencys. Adding a resistor is much preferable and won't lower the damping factor by any more than if you inserted another speaker. Another benefit of the resistor is that you can get them non-inductive. So the resistor will have less effect on the sound overall than a transformer would ever. The transformer would cost at least 20 times the price of the highest quality US made non-inductive resistor.

What Greg should really do is to buy more of a smaller type of surround speaker and an amp that can handle two ohm loads. This will give three benefits...
1. Improved coverage and less localization effect.

2. The surrounds can then be wired for either 4 ohms or 2 ohms, all in parallel which is the preferred way to wire them. There are way less phase problems that will occur at different frequencys than if the sound for the next speaker in line had already passed through another speaker. Also, good used power amps are a dime a dozen these days. Just check E-Bay.

3. More surrounds equals more level which equals less overall distortion level.
Mark @ GTS

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-21-2001 04:16 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Mark.

Stay clear of transformers, they will just degrade performance. You should also be cautious when running speaker systems below 4 ohms unless you are familiar with the characteristics of the speakers and amplifier you are using. The rated impedance of a speaker is a "nominal" impedance - the actual impedance may vary considerably over the frequency range. Some speakers are worse in this respect than others and it is not unusual for a speaker rated at 4 ohms to have impedance dips well below 2 ohms at some frequencies. Unless the amplifer can handle this you can end up with amplifier overload in certain parts of the frequency spectrum.

That's not to say don't use 2 ohms, just be judicious in your choice of equipment.

Another tip, never use less than two pair of surround speakers, even in your home system. And if you can only manage two pair, make sure that one pair is mounted just in front of, and the other pair just behind, the main listening area. This will give the best dispersion of the surround sound field.

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Ray Derrick
President
Panalogic Corporation Pty Limited
44 Carrington Road
Castle Hill NSW 2154
Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655
Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-21-2001 01:03 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray (and others),

Many of the amplifiers out there can now safely handle 2-Ohm nominal impedance loads (per/channel).

QSC has a marvelous amplifier the DCA-1222 that can run with 1.6-Ohm loads all day...in fact that was one of it's design criteria.

QSC also has a 4-channel amplifier that will handle down to 2-Ohms a channel. This not only has the obvious EX potential but allows one to break up the surround array so that one can run all speakers in parallel up to a 16-surround array.

As to the imedance curves...this really isn't too much of an issue in movie theatres and particularly on the surrounds. Most of the low-impedance part of the curve of most speakers is in the very low frequency. Most of the surround speakers in use today have an LF cutoff below 80Hz or 50Hz (depending on size and quality). Most cinema processors (and some amps, like QSC) offer the ability to high-pass the surround channel to either 50Hz and above. As such, one never will have the low part of the impedance curve come into play.

As a side note for the DTS users out there. DTS places their subwoofer track onto the Ls and Rs surround channels. It is REAL important to high-pass your surrounds at a frequency at or above where your surrounds can safely play. If you have ever used the emperical test disc and played the sweep section, you will hear when the subwoofer section comes...a distinct "flapping" sound at first when the sweep first starts....that isn't your subwoofer but the poor hapless surround cones flapping about.

Another reason to high-pass is it simply wastes amplifier power and potentially will damage the speaker to have a surround speaker play below it's cutoff frequency.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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