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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Projection room humidity (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Projection room humidity
Jonathan Worthing
Master Film Handler

Posts: 384
From: Hereford, UK
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-16-2001 05:03 AM      Profile for Jonathan Worthing   Email Jonathan Worthing   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Static is not the projectionists friend. one way to counteract the static is adjust the humidity in the projection room.

My question is does anybody know the optimum % of humidity for the best result.


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Dick Vaughan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1032
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-16-2001 05:26 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We always ask for 50% +/- 5%.. As a guideline IMAX specify 40 - 65% .

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-16-2001 09:10 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak's recommendation is 50 to 60 percent RH.

At very high humidity, the gelatin emulsion softens and swells, such that it may scratch easier, build up on hot projector gate components, hold dirt particles, or even get "sticky".

Really low humidity will aggravate static problems, since the film emulsion becomes less conductive. Very low humidity also may cause excessive film curl as the gelatin emulsion shrinks from the loss of moisture.

Ideally, the film should have just a bit of "positive" curl, and lie nearly flat --- this occurs at 50-60 percent humidity.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/september99/pointers.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-16-2001 09:16 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JP,

What do you mean by positive curl??

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Steve Scott
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1300
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 12:02 AM      Profile for Steve Scott   Email Steve Scott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
30% is nominal for us, but you're right, 50 works well too.

I've found that most wraps, at least here in the midwest, occur in March to May, when it's heating up outside. Or whenever our dehumidifiers break down...

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http://www.mullerfamilytheatres.com

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 12:10 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Before FilmGuard, I had static problems all over the place.
After FilmGuard I had none.
No difference in humidity.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 08:15 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken asked: "What do you mean by positive curl??"

As humidity decreases, the gelatin emulsion shrinks as it loses moisture to the air, so it causes the film to curl inward toward the emulsion -- this is "positive" curl. At very high humidity, the gelatin emulsion absorbs moisture and expands, causing "negative" curl. Processed print film has minimal curl between 50 and 60 percent humidity. A hanging short strip of print film in the air can actually be used as a guide to maintaining the proper humidity -- a very slight amount of "positive" curl usually is the optimal position.
Use a dehumidifier if the film has "negative" curl. Increase the humidity if the film has excessive "positive" curl.

Here are links to information:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/base.shtml#other
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/programs/student/handbook/physical4.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 11:18 AM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I attended the IMAX projectionist training seminar in 1999 September. IMAX recommended that the print storage area should maintain 40-60% RH and 21-28'C. The optimal relative humidity is 54%.

IMAX also recommended storing prints emulsion in.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-17-2001 12:03 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quote: "IMAX also recommended storing prints emulsion in."

?????

I have always heard that film should be stored emulsion out. Is the emulsion-in suggestion just for IMAX projectionists?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 12:39 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SMPTE Recommended Practice RP39 specifies emulsion-in orientation for release prints, for optimum winding quality and focus stability. However, SMPTE RP39 is based on Kodak performance data for TRIACETATE prints.

Many Film-Tech participants find that platter transport and focus stability of today's 35mm polyester prints seem better with emulsion-out winding orientation. This would be possible, since the humidity curl characteristic of polyester prints is known to be different than triacetate. Frankly, the optimum winding orientation for polyester prints probably depends upon the relative humidity being maintained in the projection room, so the current recommendation is to use the orientation that provides the best transport (e.g., least tendency to "static cling") and best focus stability for the humidity conditions and equipment (curved vs. flat gate, lens type) in your theatre.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-17-2001 01:44 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So are IMAX prints still printed on acetate?

How you know if winding emulson in or out would be better for your theatre? Anyway, I'm talking about breaking down the film, when you don't know where it will go. Does emulsion in or out make any difference?

What difference does a flat or curved gate make?

JP- you have provided a lot of valuable information and links on many, many topics, spanning many, many threads. Thank you so much! I have seen older copies of the Kodak projection manual floating around at older theatres I've been to. How can my theatre get a new one? (We don't have any.) thx

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 02:05 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IMAX prints have always been on Kodak ESTAR base print stock.

With triacetate prints, definitely wind emulsion-in, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP39. With polyester prints, whichever orientation that seems to give better winding quality (I usually wind emulsion-in).

A curved gate generally helps counteract the heat-related "focus flutter" by gently bending the print lengthwise, giving it some added stiffness in the gate. Most modern lenses are optimized for the more commonly available curved gates.

Film-Tech has ALL the back issues of Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People" in the "Manuals" section. Recent Kodak publications are available at:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/index.shtml

SMPTE Books, including the recently published Projection Manual, are available at:
http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/books/

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Freddie Dobbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 115
From: Pinson, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 10-17-2001 02:58 PM      Profile for Freddie Dobbs   Email Freddie Dobbs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speaking of Film Notes I ran across a copy from 1994 and guess who's photo was in there in the Pytlak's Pratical Projection Pointers

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-17-2001 03:19 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been writing for Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People" and "Cinema Notes" since 1979 (although not always with a by-line) . But the picture never changes much, except for less hair.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-17-2001 06:39 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

I know your Tips page suggests emulsion out for polyester, and that is what I always do. What are your thoughts in light of what JP has said here today? thx.

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