Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » FM -35 constantly reads outboard cue (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: FM -35 constantly reads outboard cue
Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 02:43 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On one of my FM-35's, the "outboard" LED is always lit, whether the film is threaded or not, whether there is anything metalic within a mile of the sensor or not. I don't know if this is just a problem with the LED or if the unit actualy thinks there is always an outboard cue present.

I think it's the later. Here's why: our automation (RGM) requires an outboard cue to end the show. It must be a pulse. Well, in this house the tail always shows on screen. The show doesn't end. If an outboard cue is always present, there would be no pulse, so the automation would not close the dowser and end the show.

So, my first thought was the cue sensor module was bad. I proceeded to swap it out, but when I removed it, the outboard LED was sitll lit! At this point, my guess is there is something wrong with the circuit board on the FM-35. I removed the cover to visually inspect the board, but I couldn't find anything wrong. Any ideas what the problem could be?


 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 09-23-2001 02:53 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
get with component engineering and obtain a replacement FM35 unit....they will want you to send the old one back.....

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 03:59 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't have the authority to call companies and order replacement parts. That has to go through my tech. Don't you think I could just replace the circuit board, rather than the whole unit, if I can get a spare from him?

 |  IP: Logged

Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 04:27 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the FM-35 there are 3 circuit boards...so knowing which one to swap out would be required....after you remove these boards there is very little left value wise on the unit. The board next to the white roller, try to unplug ( after you remove the two screws holding the black potted sensor block )it and replug to see if you problem goes away. The guys at Component Engineering will not bite your head off if you call them for advise ( telephone number on the sensor ).....give them the serial number on the sensor which will help them to know the age of the unit.
Richard Fowler
TVTheatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 04:42 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The circuit board I'm talking about is the one behind the cover that has CE's logo on it. This cover has a little window for the 5 LED's (Presence, motion, inboard, outboard, and center) which are part of the board. I already removed the black sensor module (is this one of the boards you're talking about?) to swap it, but the outboard LED was still lit, so my conclusion was that the problem is with the circuit board that the module plugs in to, not the sensor module. (Just to help describe the board I'm talking about, it has about 4 or 5 IC's and a whole bunch of resistors.)

What and where are the other boards on the unit?

Sure, I can call CE for advice, but Darryl's suggestion was to order a replacement from them, and I can't do that.


 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-23-2001 05:32 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Remove the cover (with the logo etc on it) and examine that PC board. I will almost guarantee it has been partially 'sawed in half', near the top black roller by the film running against it, usually from being misaligned. I have had three FM35s do exactly this,(causing exactly the same symptom of the cue detector LED to stay on (and usually lock into pulsing the cue) as well as sometimes causing a 'constant presence' mode as well) and it sure LOOKS aligned, but the film would ride against the board and cut the traces completely in half. My solution was to alter the alignment, then repair the board with solder jumpers across the severed traces, then take a piece of mylar leader and wrap the damaged section of the board with a single thickness of mylar, then finish that with either electrical tape or splicing tape. Make sure the film path thru the failsafe is good and the film is not riding off towards the board.

Aaron


 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 05:45 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WOW!! I never would've thunk that! I'll check it out next time I'm at work.

So why would those traces being cut in half cause a constant outboard cue?


 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-23-2001 06:08 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Electronic devices can switch either normally open or normally closed action

 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 09-23-2001 06:10 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
my advice to you is to call your tech and let him decide what needs to be done...once you start messing around with the boards and screw something up they will charge the company you work for full price if you try to send it in for replacement....Since you did not say who you are in your post how am I to know if you have the authority to do anything...if you don't have the authority then talk to someone who does and replace the unit....it is called a repair/exchange but if more damage is caused by trying to repair it yourself then it will cost your company full price to replace the unit....be smart and ask your tech to check it out and let him make the decision to screw around with it or get a replacement and send that one back.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-23-2001 06:15 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am in complete agreement with Aaron.
This has happened to me about a half-dozen times. Exactly the same symptoms.

There is a long, skinny PC board along the back of the unit that can be seen from the operator's side of the machine. If you have a film path misalignment the film will rub against that board and eventually saw a line into it, cutting one or more of the traces. It will cause irratic behavior and eventually one of the cues will come on permanently.

You can disassemble the unit and remove the PC board. Take some fine-grade emory cloth and remove the green colored layer of protective lacquer from the surface of the board. Just expose the parts that have damaged traces. Don't sand the whole board! If you look closely, you'll be able to see where the traces have been cut. Take some alcohol on a Q-Tip and clean the bare metal of the traces. Take your soldering iron and apply a thin coating of melted solder to the bare metal. You're not trying to bridge the gap yet. You are just "tinning" the bare metal. It makes it easier to solder to in the next steps and it makes for a better, more secure connection.

At this point, I should mention that you only need to apply enough heat to liquify the solder. Once it starts to flow, you only have a few seconds before you start doing heat damage to the traces on the board and any electronic components that may be in the area. If you see the copper foil start to peel away from the board you are doing damage and you should stop what you are doing.

Once the traces have been tinned, you can get a piece of thin guage stranded wire and strip it clean so you can access the strands inside. Cut off enough pieces of these hair thin wires to bridge any gaps in the traces. They don't have to be very long. Just enough to bridge the gap and leave about 1/8 of an inch on either side of the gap. A 1/4 to 1/2 inch piece should do the trick. If the trace is curved or goes around a bend, form the piece of wire to match the shape of the trace. You do NOT want the piece of wire to touch anything else but the place you are trying to repair.
Use a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass if you have to. The more accurately you work the better off you are gong to be.

Lay the wire in place over the gap and carefully apply heat. Touch the end of your piece of solder to the place where the tip of the iron and the wire meet and melt a SMALL blob of solder in place. Use the tip of the iron to smooth the solder so it covers the wire. Make SURE the liquid solder doesn't "leak" onto neighboring areas of the board. If you cleaned and tinned the areas in question properly, the solder will seem to flow right down the length of the wire and cover the gap, almost as if by magic.

Once you are satisfied with your work, let the whole thing cool for a few minutes. Use a pair of small wire cutters (or toenail clippers) to trim off any excess wire. Take some Xe-Kote and a toothbrush and clean the areas you just soldered. You must remove all of the flux from around the joints you just made. (Some kinds of soldering flux are conductive.) Clean the area again with alcohol to remove any Xe-Kote residue. Once the area is absolutely clean reassemble the unit and test it. If you are satisfied with your handywork, take some nail polish and cover all the areas that you sanded bare. (If you happen to be able to get your hands on some clear, green PC board lacquer, all the better but nail polish will do fine.) Before you put the unit back into service, it might be a good idea to take some electrical tape and cover that whole area of the PC board to help protect it from the same kind of damage in the future. Just about the only criticism I have about the FM-35 is that there should be a cover over this area of the PC to protect it from this kind of damage. Admittedly, this is a small criticism.

To finish up the job, realign the falesafe to make sure the film stays inside the intended film path through the unit. If it's touching against any other part of the unit, except for the rollers, you are either going to damage the unit or the film itself.
While you are at it you might as well go around and check any other units you have for this kind of mishap. You already have all the tools out, right?! Why not kill two birds with one stone?

Oh, yeah! Maybe I should mention that if you've never used a soldering iron before, you should leave the job to somebody who has... Your engineer, for example! (At least give your engineer a call or send him an e-mail first!)

Lastly, you can have the powers-that-be in your company order you a whole, new unit. Then you can send the old one back once you have the new one working. If you do that, the company should only charge you for the cost of the parts needed to repair the unit (plus labor). Even if you get a little bit of money back, it'll still be less expensive than buying a whole new one. (Which is what you WILL have to do if you try to repair the old one and mess it up!)

Just remember the old saying that my Step-Dad always tells me: "Measure twice. Cut once."


 |  IP: Logged

Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 07:18 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron is right on those four traces near the upper black roller....half of the FM-35 we get in exchange in our service work are due to these traces being cut by film...slipped my feeble mind....and since his service tech is in house on the circuit payroll, the cost issue is not a big deal....at least you are trying to give a good show.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 08:26 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So are the actual traces covered with that laquer stuff? If so, I would have to sand the traces to make contact with them, right? Once I do, I could just connect a small wire over the gap and see if the outboard light goes off to make sure that is what's causing the problem, right?

We do not have xecote. Could I just clean the area with denatured alchohol?

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 08:31 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone have diagrams of the circuit boards? They are not in the manual, which is only 4 pages.

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-23-2001 08:38 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
By the way, what will probably end up hapening is my tech will replace the board with a spare he has. Then I get to take the bad one to the electronics lab at my school and play with it. If I end up repairing it, I'll keep it as a spare.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-23-2001 08:55 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, gently sand off the green lacquer, but ONLY from the places where you want to work. If you try to solder on an area where you haven't removed it, you're in for one big smelly, burned mess! The solder won't stick to it, either.

Don't try to jumper the connections by hand while the power is on to the unit! If it wasn't busted before you tried that, it just might end up busted after!
Just take a flashlight and get down on your hands and knees under the projector. Look really closely, in good light and the "saw marks" should be pretty plain to see. Although 3 or 4 of us guys concur with the same diagnosis, that's still not a 100% sure thing! Make sure you can find the problem we describe before you go messing around. (No, I'm not treating you like you are stupid... it's just a CYA thing on my part! ;0 )

No diagrams are available in any of the documentation I have. Actually, there's nothing to the thing if you look at it. It's a pretty well-designed piece of equipment and it's put together pretty "tight" as well. A reasonably intelligent person ought to be able to figure it out.

90% of the stuff I know how to fix was learned by the "Ain't got nuttin' to lose proposition"! Sounds like the best of both worlds!

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.