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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Xenex II making my gates hot !!! (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Xenex II making my gates hot !!!
Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 04:51 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all...i'm new to posting here. My first post is in "film-yak" "who the hell are you" pg 13.

It just so happens that on my first registered day with Film-Tech I have an ongoing problem that I could use any opinions on:

On two screens I am running Century MSA heads with the standard curved gate/trap assemblies along with Xenex II lamphouse with 2K lamps. My most severe problem is with the gates getting hot. They film isn't getting scorched, but the gates will give you 3rd degree burns with just a quick touch. The lamphouses were aligned by me (via string). I could not get them perfect, but they are close enough. The little asbestos plate just behind the aperture is in place. The shutter has its cooling fins in place. The lamphouse focus is good. I have tried everything to get the gates to run cooler to no avail. In fact, the whole projector head gets very warm...they have to be regreased often because of this.

I have Xenex II's with 3K lamps running elsewhere, and the gates are much cooler there than with my 2K's here, and the projector housing hardly gets warm at all.

Another Problem:

I have a Xenex I running on another screen that has the exact same throw, screen size, and a 2K lamp. The projector runs cool, and I can get 4 footlamberts more light on the screen than with the Xenex II's! It has been argued to me that the Xenex II is a much more efficient lamphouse than the Xenex I, but I fail to see it.

ANY ideas will be appreciated!

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 05:12 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Xenex II lamphouse uses a "cold coated" metal reflector with a "lumex" type bulb focus mount (1) your coating maybe peeling which would introduce more heat to the gate (2) Bulb focus maybe to spotted up. If the reflector is peeling, check the blower to see if it is suppling enough air to the rear of the lamphouse.....cold coated reflector do not last forever no matter who makes them. The Xenex I uses a glass Dichroic "cold coated" surface which is more efficient in removing the infared heat from the gate and due to the rigid bulb mounting and moving the reflector than the bulb may give you better light on the screen, especially if the lens is a medium or long focal length. I have installed scores of both types.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 05:27 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Check your exhaust system as well cold type metal mirrors absorb the heat of the light and it is radiated out through the metal and up the stack. If the heat isn't being drawn out it will get hot
Check your lenes older slower lens match better with the Xenex1 compared to the faster optics of the xenex2

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 07:09 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the replies, guys.

Stack exhaust is about 100 cfm more than it should be. The rear blower wheels on the lamphouses themselves are freshly cleaned. One of the reflectors was replaced with new last month...the other is older, but not peeling or flaking. Lenses are 1-year old schneiders.

I am at a loss. The only thing I know to do is to install a heat filter in the built in tray on the MSA head right before the gate. I just don't understand why I have these problems with these two machines, but not with any of our other units.

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 07:15 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...another thing I have noticed it that when i move the bulb until corner vingetting starts to occur on screen, and then look through the shutter timing window, the focused light on the back of the aperture extends well onto the machine casting. The spot is probably 3.5 - 4 inches round. I cannot get it any smaller than that. The lamphouse is set to the proper working distance (30.5 i think). I tried moving it back for kicks...no help.


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 07:22 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stack exhaust may be 100 cfm more that it should be but it better be at least 700 to 1000 cfm to cool properly. If youhave a grainger 785 cfm blower on it your lamp life will be great and the gate will not get too hot. I sold hundreds of Xenex 2's and consoles when I was based in Chicago and this size blower did wonders. never had a reflector peel either....only when they had the bad batch from Optiform but those were replaced at N/C.

SUPER IMPORTANT!!!!!Also check to see that the exhaust blower squirrel cage is rotating in the right dorection. I have encountered many with the wheel spinning in the wrong direction. The last one I encountered only two weeks ago and it was on a Super 80 running a 3kw lamp! This lamphouse installation had been done 4 years ago too. Reflector is still good though. Lamp life was marginal to the warranty time. Bet they go past 2500 hrs now.
Mark @ GTS

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 08:08 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I installed 900cfm rooftop exhaust blowers, which end up removing about 800cfm at the lamphouse. All blower wheels are turning the correct direction.

And even if i beefed up the stack exhaust, I still don't understand why removing a few hundred cfm more air from the lamphouse will make that big of a difference at the projector gate....especially when I have (at another theatre) a 3K Xenex II unit running with about 450cfm exhaust with no problems...

...also, I was always told not to over-exhaust too much or the lamp would run too cold and cause flicker and short life...is this true?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 08:21 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is the working distance correct?
Does the lamp have the correct adapters.
You mentioned the overshoot on the apperture block, that is the source of the heat. That light energy is being absorbed by the head.
The xenex2 like all deep reflectors is fussy about absolutely correct lamphouse alignment

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Freddie Dobbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 115
From: Pinson, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 08:22 PM      Profile for Freddie Dobbs   Email Freddie Dobbs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wes,

Every time I have had the problem you described it has been the alignment or working distance... is the projector "square" with the lamphouse?

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-28-2001 09:53 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The working distance is whatever is stated in the manuals (30.5 i think). The adaptors on the bulb were sold to us expressly to use 2K lamps with that lamphouse. I am assuming that if the lamp was sitting in the wrong position (due to incorrect adaptors) that I would not be able to focus the lamp, or that refocusing the lamp would compensate for too short or long adaptors. I mean, there is on ly one "point of focus" that the arc can be manuevered into, right?

As far as alignment. Just how fussy are the "deep-dish" reflectors to align? I did these two, and I have to admit it drove me crazy. I spent serveral hours moving them around, and they still are not perfect. One of them is close, but, using the string, it is still not perfect from all directions, and no amount of moving it will help (it will just put it out in another direction). Also, and maybe I should have said this earlier: when I bought the units (used) the bulkhead casting adjustments on top of the reflector were loosened and serveral inches from actual contact with the bulkhead that the reflector is attached to. The installation manuals say that these should never be adjusted since the bulkhead is made to be square with the bottom rails at the factory. They had been loosened. I just tightened them back so that the bulkhead was at a line that the UV radiation from the lamp had burned into the paint on top of the lamphouse...a "shadow" if you will. I don't know what else to do in that department.

SO, could the little bit of misalignment that exsists make this big of a deal?

...and if so, how can I align them better (the string thing makes sense, but I cannot get it perfect).

Sorry i'm rambling so...but these problems just don't make sense to me.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-28-2001 10:27 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know much about Xenex lamphouses, but I do know Century's (JJ's, SA's whatever) gates get very hot. I found there to be very little cooling action provided by shutter. Heat filter are a good idea if you can fit them on. After putting three different lamphouses on the same type of Century projectors, we "gave up" and just installed the water-cooled gate assembly.

Now, it could still be some mis-alignment, but generally if the light is even and flat, and checked for optical alignment, I don't think that's the problem (although I feel you might be better off with a laser alignment setup.)

I have seen lamps with incorrect xenon adapters still provide flat light, although with much less light than with the correct ones. Double check the adapters are correct.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-28-2001 10:30 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>and if so, how can I align them better (the string thing makes sense, but I cannot get it perfect).<<

Ask Greg Mueller about the ALIGN-O-TRON laser tool. If THAT cant align it, nothing probably can.

Aaron

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 08-28-2001 11:26 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are you using the glass dichroic reflectors in your lamphouse. I am familure with the xenex 2 lamphouses. What I used to do everytime I changed the bulb I removed the reflector and washed the back of it with mild soap and water to remove dust and dirt build up that would prevent the ultraviolet light from passing thru the reflector. You always had better light output and the projector heads always seemed to run cooler when you did this.

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-29-2001 01:41 AM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the Xenex 2's have metal reflectors, so they don't pass through UV radiation like the dicro's do...but I agree it's a good idea for any lamphouse to keep both sides of the reflector clean.

I am somewhat familiar with laser alignment tools. There used to be a hobbyist here in town that made in his shop but I have yet to use one. Are they expensive?

It just seems to me that theoretically a string would work just as good at everything but making sure the anode end is perfectly in line with the aperture (ie that the lamp is optically perfectly in line with the aperture)...with the biggest advantage being ease of use.

As far as the adaptors...does anyone know what the proper adapters would be for this lamphouse using a standard length Osram or LTI lamp? We have been using Osram for years, but I have gotten better service out of LTI lamps, so we are switching to them. I have to say that the light is fairly easy to get nice and flat, but with the same lamp, throw, lens arrangement, and screen size I can get more light out of a Xenex 1, which contradicts what I have always been told: that the Xenex 2 is more efficient than the 1. I can only get about 10 footlamberts out of them both.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-29-2001 09:52 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The deep metal mirrors are extremely criticle in the alignment. If the bulkhead alignment has been messed with you have a major problem
The xenex 2 is only available with the metal mirror the xenex1 is glass only
Not only does misalignment cause heat and light loss it can also effect the eveness of image focus as well
Xenon lamphouse are either aligned or they are not there is very little inbetween

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