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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Crystals on my platter surface!

   
Author Topic: Crystals on my platter surface!
Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-27-2001 09:18 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just noticed crystals forming on one of my aluminum platter surfaces. What is this? Is it a salt or some sort of oxidation that's occurring? I last cleaned the surface with 409 about a month ago and did not notice this. Why just on one platter? What's going on and how do I get it safely off?


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-27-2001 11:26 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it's sort of a white powder then it's oxidation of the aluminum (rust) If it's real crystals, I dunno. I'd rub some Film Guard on the platter surface to, in effect, "oil" it

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-27-2001 11:28 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What are the chances that 409 is causing the deck to corrode?


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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 06:40 AM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce, I thought it might be the 409, but the other two platters look OK. I have one reel of old (1973) film stock that's been sitting on this particular platter for the last couple of weeks. Could that cause oxidation? I will try some Film Guard on it this evening.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-28-2001 01:23 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell Cope asked: "I have one reel of old (1973) film stock that's been sitting on this particular platter for the last couple of weeks. Could that cause oxidation?"

If the oxidation is only on the area of the platter that was directly under the old film, it may be that moisture in the film was trapped, and affected the platter. I doubt any film-related effect would happen in only "the last couple weeks", unless the old acetate film had severe "vinegar syndrome" releasing free acetic acid. Do you smell any pungent/acid vapors from the old film roll?

What is the relative humidity in your projection room? --- excess moisture will cause rust and corrosion.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 08:49 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure if the 409 did it, but I have now noted that the label says not to use on aluminum. I have also noted that most cleansers say not to use on aluminum.

The relative humidity is around 52% and the oxidation(?) did not occur directly under the film, specifically. The film seems to be fine with no traces of vinegar syndrome or moisture.

The "rinse" with Film Guard worked well in removing about two-thirds of the roughness. I went back over the surface with an aluminum cleaner. It helped a little more. I will probably go back over it a couple more times later this week and keep an eye on it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2001 09:39 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have had 409 slightly etch the surface of alumnium before.If you spray it on and forget about it is when that can happen. Potts and Strong platter decks sometimes suffer from this.
Mark @ GTS

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 08-29-2001 06:42 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK every bloody!

Let us talk about aluminum and corrosion.

First, aluminum DOES NOT rust! Rust refers to ferrous (iron) alloys.
Aluminum corrodes.

The types of corrosion that effect aluminum and its alloys are:

a) Direct Surface Attack is the most common and results from the direct reaction of the metal surface with oxygen in the air and may be accelerated by salt spray or salt-bearing air, industrial gasses etc. Notice what a fingerprint does to a platter surface?

b) Dissimilar Metals Corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact and are connected by an electrolyte.

c) Pitting is usually a localized breakdown of protection and can result from mechanical working, faulty heat treatment, an inclusion or localized contamination that breaks down surface protection.

d) Intergranular Corrosion is caused by improper heat treatment and grain boundries in the metal. Aluminum alloys 2024 and 7075 are highly vulnerable. I believe that platter decks are 2024. Exfoliation is an advanced form of this type of corrosion. The metal can blister and deliminate. If you look at a cross section of aluminum with intergranular corrosion the metal will be delamanated and resemble pages of a book.

e and f) Stress and Fatigue--self explanitory--

g) Fretting) is a rubbing contact that can destroy a protective coating and may remove virgin metal from the surface which could prevent the formation of a protective oxide. This is an abrasive action. also called False Brinnelling in relation to the hardness test. Maybe the film rubbing on the platter deck could have a similar result?

So how do we protect aluminum?

a) Anodizing. A good example of this will be the aluminum parts of the Christie P35-GPS that have a hard black coating.

b) Cladding. Pure aluminum is very corrosion resistant but has no structural strength. This is why we have alloys. Anyhow, cladding is when a paper thin layer of pure aluminum is hot rolled onto the surface of the alloy. Platter decks are not clad.

c) Painting and related surface treatments.

Do not clean platter decks with alcohol!!!
I have never experienced problems with 409. Manufacturers recommend cleaning platter decks with light soap and water solution followed by a rince with clean water and a thourough drying!

Hope this lesson helps!

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Joe Ritter
Film Handler

Posts: 27
From: Cape May Court House, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-30-2001 12:10 AM      Profile for Joe Ritter   Email Joe Ritter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Will Kutler,

I enjoyed your desertation on Aluminum. This brings me to ask one queation concerning The black coating (anodise) that is found on many aluminum parts. How is applied, can it be put on an aluminum part easily? In other words can it be done in a small shop situation?--------Thanks--------Joe Ritter------

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-30-2001 09:17 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anodising is what its name say and anode of electroplating.
By placing the object in different salt solutions different colours are produced

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 08-30-2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Joe!

This process is specialized and covered under the EPA. Generally speaking, anodizing is performed by specialized shops who are subcontracted by the machine shops. Call up some of your local machine shops to find out who is anodizing their parts for them. Also check your phone book. Anodizing is also popular with race-car and hot rod performance shops. Theres bound to be a shop close by. Ask them to walk you through the process. Another good source of info would be books on metalurgy or machine shop practices which your public library should have. Also surf the net.

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-31-2001 11:32 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anodizing is pretty simple. I did it quite a bit 20+ years ago, and the following is from memory and a bit uncertain...
You need a vat of battery acid, a non-reactive cathode (I used a lump of lead) and a DC power supply such as a battery charger. Attach a wire to the (very clean! , wash with soap, dip in muriatic acid, and rinse thoroughly) aluminum part and the + power, and the - to the cathode. Both go in the acid and must not touch. Run initially 1 Amp per square inch of aluminum surface max - the current will drop as the surface becomes less conductive - for about 20 minutes. Remove, rinse in clear water, and dye immediately.
This produces a porous surface. If you want a colour you dunk it in a dye bath for a while. Regular fabric dye like RIT is fine, let it get a shade darker than you want as some will leach out in the sealing. Then, coloured or not, you boil it in plain water for 20 minutes, somehow this seals the surface.
Voila.
Inattention to the initial cleaning or the rinses and even any long wait between steps will give a blotchy colour job. The colour density and evenness are never as good as fancy factory anodizing jobs, but look OK.
Battery acid doesn't immediately destroy stuff but it doesn't take very long. It's not like the movies where smoke comes off your skin as it dissolves, actually it just generates a mild burning sensation after a few seconds. If you rinse it off within a minute or two you're fine. Eyes are different, you should wear goggles near the stuff. It will dissolve cloth - not instantly but a drop of acid on your shirt will turn into a hole overnight. Wear expendable clothes, they will most certainly have some new holes.

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