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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » A.I. prints tripping proxemity sensors on failsafes. (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: A.I. prints tripping proxemity sensors on failsafes.
Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 01:05 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have been informed that some A.I. prints are tripping the film proxemity sensors on some failsafes. One of the theaters I work at uses the componet engineering failsafes. We were told that if our prints caused any tripping to remove the film sensor from the bracket and store. I am hoping we dop not have any problems. Has anyone else ran into this problem on these prints. Warner Bros. has stated that the problem is caused by a density problem with the prints. Maybe Mr. Pytlak can explaine this strange problem with density for us.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 01:26 AM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
um... why would you remove the sensor? If its tripping (and not just dirty)then run the show manual. A good operator should be able to run a show manual and make it look just as good (if not better) than running it automated. just my 0.02

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 01:57 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
it's not my call. Our booth engeneer told use to do this if we had too. I am keeping my fingers crossed that our prints are not from the bad batch of reels or whatever the problem was.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-29-2001 02:48 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am told that the reason for this is either cheap film or poor image density from processing. It's unclear to me exactly what the problem is because I haven't seen it. I just got back from a theatre that is screening A.I. and their prox. failsafes have no problem. I guess I'll find out in the morning.

The reason for taking the film sensor off is to bypass the failsafe yet still keep the automation functions intact. On some automations if you run in manual or use the FS BYPASS switch, some or all of the automation functions are also disabled. On the CFS consoles, when you put the automation in bypass the changeover will shut when the failsafe drops out while the projector keeps running. If the operator isn't in the immedaite vicinity there will be complaints of the picture "shutting off". Removing the FS sensor will completely disable it. The automation will think the failsafe is operating and keep running as if nothing ever happened. Of course, if there is a problem all hell may break loose. If you bypassed the FS this still might happen but you won't have to keep running over to the projector every five minutes to reopen the changeover.

I have had almost zero problems with poor film quality when the "new" Comp. Eng. detectors are installed. They are the ones that either have the red dots on the side of the detector blocks or else they have the little chip on the PC board. If you have the old sensor units it will pay you in the long run to replace them. They aren't that expensive. If your company has negotiated a repair exchange agreement with the company they will cost even less.

If you want to order them the part number is FM-35-PU.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-29-2001 11:23 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We're working on it! We have been contacted by a couple of folks out there in the real world and we, in turn, are in contact with Warner Brothers. When we have truth for you it will be posted. In the meantime, any input anyone has will be appreciated.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-29-2001 11:30 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We had a problem like that awhile ago. We had the Xetron LED sensor type of failsafe detector. We were running the same trailer in three houses (for ID4, if I remember) and it would stop the show.

We actually went back to the regular old microswitch type.. it was easier than trying to make the LED ones work.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-29-2001 02:10 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Component Engineering old-style FM35's were not very Speilberg-friendly, and it seems to be the case again!

I SWEAR on stacks of Bibles, that EVERY Speilberg film in the past 6 years would fail to detect on any of the old FM35s that we had prior to upgrading to the new-style detector and reader! LOST WORLD, AMISTAD, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, and now apparently A.I. :O

Coincidence? You be the judge!

Aaron

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Mike Spaeth
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1129
From: Marietta, GA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 02:51 PM      Profile for Mike Spaeth   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Spaeth   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I had the aforementioned problem. I had a spare sensor, so I replaced it with a new one ... it's working great now. BTW, I had the same problem w/ the A.I. trailers that were enclosed with Pearl Harbor.

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Greg Pauley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Huntington, WV, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 03:27 PM      Profile for Greg Pauley   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Pauley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I found this problem on a print of "Swordfish" at the beginning of the second reel for about 5 minutes. This theatre is using a TA10 automation w/fm35 and I noticed the green l.e.d for presence going on and off during this section of the film. I moved the print to another auditorium and the problem followed. I ended up throwing the bypass switch for presence inside the automation and ran the automation in auto instead of manual. This is the first time I've notice this problem, hope it doesn't continue on other prints.

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-29-2001 03:58 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is a related topic that I've been worrying about....

A film festival used raw camera negative stock as an opaque leader between shorts and features when there was a lens change to be done. The stock consistently tripped our Component Engineering failsafes (which I believe have the revised sensor boards with the dot). This was actually useful since it automatically stopped the projector for the lens change.

However, I tested a different roll of raw cam neg (I have no idea as to which stocks these were) that consistently was detected by the failsafe. Any ideas why? Has anyone else tried using raw stock as leader, as well?

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-29-2001 04:28 PM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We continue to get mixed reports on this film and I thank all of you who have commented here. Warners is sending us some samples of the stock and we hope to have them early in the week. We have learned that some of the prints in the field are from earlier generations of the print materials, but the bulk of them will probably be another couple of generations down. But what difference should this make? The print stock is the thing that matters.

We have also received a copy of an internal report at Warners that talks about how the optical sensors look through the film and if there is no density the sensors will not work. WRONG!!! They work by bouncing light back from the base side of the film and it is the reflectivity of the base material that will affect the results. We had to make changes when the polyestar based material came out because of differences in the amount of light scatter. Most of the changes were to the motion detector in order to increase the swing of the pulses so that they could be detected with greater reliability.

More when we have it.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-29-2001 06:47 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When my old theatre first opened (17 sscreen, CFS Consoles, CE-FM-35.) For the first two years, we had absolutely no trouble. I had been told of potential problems but had never actually seen them.

After about two years a couple of the FS started "dropping out" in seemingly random places. A couple of them were attrubuatble to poor film path alignment and a couple others were found to be caused by splices catching on the lower magazine rollers as they went by.

(Question: In future revisions of the FM-35, would it be possible to include an adjustable "bobble delay"??)

Once we eliminated all those problems we found that SOME of them were still dropping out. I would take the sensor unit off and clean it with Roscoe lens cleaner and a Q-tip. I have discovered that it's NOT a good idea to use Roscoe lens cleaner! It contains blue dye. If you don't get ALL the dirt of the little sensors underneath there you will actually dye the dirt blue, making the problem WORSE! I say it's better to use good old fashioned alcohol. Just make sure the unit is completely dry before reinstalling it. If you've ever wondered if there is a good use for those stupid electric hand dryers in rest rooms, here's one. Blow your sensors dry!

This procedure bought us a couple of months but eventually more and more sensors started dying on us. The mean time between failures got shorter and shorter. About this time we discovered the new sensors and we bought a few of them. They worked perfectly, even with films that were reported to track unreliably.

I'm not exactly sure what the cause of the trouble was. I was told that it had to do with a slow decay in the IRED's intensity. I also think that a slow build up of dirt in the sensor "windows". Even if you use a Q-Tip and reach up underneath to clean it you might not get all of it. The decay and dirt build up were a deadly one-two punch, I guess.

Little by little we switched all of our failsafes to the new models and we haven't had problems for three years.


As far as the current problems with current movies, I guess we should ask who is having problems and whether or not they have the newer sensor units that have either a red dot on the side of the sensor blocks or the IC chip on the PC board. I bet this info would be pretty helpful in sorting this situation out.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-29-2001 08:05 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The old FM35 sensors didn't detect IB Tech receiver stocks or B/W film either. the new sensors were a godsend.

i have also seen some FM35 sensors in the field that HAVE THE RED DOT, but DO NOT have the little chip on the sensor board. I also think they had the old-style large black roller, and not the 'deep-vee' version used today.

Aaron

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-30-2001 01:16 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron, your list of Spielberg films that cause problems with the failsafes have only one thing in common, they were all printed on Kodak stock. Then again, most films are printed on Kodak stock, which is odd why it only happens on Spielberg films.

I was at a theater today that was complaining of a cloudy image on their print of A.I. Indeed the picture was a little cloudy (lenses and port were clean) and for some reason, the operator had to fully increase the gate tension as well. (This theater has Century projectors and normally runs at the minimum tension setting. The trailers played fine.) Something is definitely different with these prints. The scene I saw was at a pool where Haley Joel Osmet pulled another kid into the pool. Can anyone verify whether this scene was clear, or just a bit cloudy? Can John Pytlak verify if the thickness of the A.I. print stock was thinner than normal?


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-30-2001 07:58 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There may be an explanation in the processing of the prints. According to an article in the July 2001 issue of "American Cinematographer", "A.I." used one of the non-standard processes that are designed to deliberately leave silver in the film to achieve a certain "look" on the screen. Perhaps the added density to infrared energy or a change in reflectance is somehow "fooling" the failsafe sensors. A few other pictures, including "Saving Private Ryan" and "Amistad", used a similar process. Kodak has a disclaimer regarding non-standard processes:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/processing/skip.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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