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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Lamp-exhaust fan solutions (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Lamp-exhaust fan solutions
Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-28-2001 05:45 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
More and more, since non-professional projectionists have been in charge of our booths, we have been having some problems; the most serious (from a cost point of view) is forgetting to turn on the lamphouse exhaust fan, resulting inevitably, in a shortened xenon-bulb life. This condition exists, despite a stack-mounted sail switch which causes a ceiling-mounted light above the console to glow green if there is exhaust, and red if there is exhaust failure.

Some consoles such as Strong, feature an exhaust stack micro-switch with paddle which cuts out the rectifier, should the exhaust be insufficient. The result of this, however, has been that the theatre staff usually abandon the performance and call us with a lamphouse problem. Although we are assured, when we ask, that the lamphouse exhaust fan is turned on, there have been too many instances where, service calls to turn on the fan switch solves the problem.

Moreover, many of our older-equipment booths do not have the above mentioned micro-switch, or some "genius" has simply solved the problem by by-passing these switches either electrically, or by mechanically (using electrical or masking tape to hold the switch up).

With some of our theatres being equipped with 7K bulbs, the results are not only expensive in terms of shortened bulb life, but in heat damage done to reflectors and lamphouse wiring, not to mention cracked heat filters.

The obvious solution should be better staff training, but with most of the booth personnel are there only as a "summer job" (projectionist licensing having been done away with in Ontario), this would be a never-ending job.

Being a realist, I realize that this personnel situation is not likely to change in the near future (if ever), thus other solutions to the problem must be found.

One solution I am considering is to mount a relay in the electrical breaker panel such that picking off one leg of the 3-phase output of the console breaker (and neutral) to power the coil, the contacts of said relay would parallel the fan switch. Thus, if the console is switched on, the fan is on.

Should it become necessary to service the fan during the show, the breaker for the fan may be switched off (for quick repairs - e.g. belt or pulley changing).

The breakers, by the way, are used as power switches to turn the consoles off at night - (not a good practice, I know, unless they are designed to be constantly switched, but one step at a time).

I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this, or any other solutions you may have. Thank you.


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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 06-28-2001 05:58 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Rick!

I would be very cautious of by-passing the exhaust fan fail safes, or alterating them for any reason - or circuit breakers! A lot of lamphouses require an exhaust fan which holds up that fail-safe in the duct work! Notice that some lamphouse doors also have a second fail-safe to prevent the bulb from striking should the door be opened. There are also decals that manufacturers are placing on lamphouse doors concerning the bulb cool-down time before the door can be safely opened! Christie even puts a decal on their projector stating that it is not to be used with nitrate film! I would make up a scheduled maintenance calandar and ensure that the exhaust fan bearings are getting greased at regular intervals, and that the belts are being changed as needed. Also, on the main circuit breaker pannel, highlight the breakers that are to be turned on/off every day. I would think, that since you have a service company, that you may be in for legal trouble should someone get hurt because of your mod. It is the responsibility of the theater to at least make an attempt to have someone with something between their ears in the booth! If they get hurt, then don't let it be your fault! CYA! At my old theater, a roof exhaust fan would sometimes fail, and if it was broke-broke, we would open the back of the lamphouse, put a big floor fan, and tape up the failsafe - just so the show could continue! We always managed to get the exhaust fan fixed between shows, or by the next day at the latest! Also, our exhaust fans were very strong, so the bulbs always stayed relatively cool!


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 06:02 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the exhaust fan is powered from the console, tie the exhaust motor feed to some critical function, such as projector motor feed, exciter feed, or anything that is compatible. In this manner, The blower HAS to be on to run the show.

Some setups using 208/240 volt PS contactors will need a relay to control the feed to the exhaust blower, especially if the exhaust blower is 115 volts. (such as in some IREM power supplies). Also, I might point out that the goofy interlock the Strong International consoles use a DC interlock loop fed from the switcher power supplies. This could be a major problem. If so, perhaps the Projector motor feed circuit breaker could also accomodate the exhaust blower as I have indicated above.

If there is a will, there is a way.


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-28-2001 06:17 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On installations I've done, I put the roof exhaust fan on with the lamphouse. Many times there are two actual power sources to the lamp; one (single) for the lamphouse itself and another 3-phase for the power supply. I put the roof exhaust fan on with the lamphouse, although I would do the same if there was only the 3-phase. This way, they can't forget to turn it on.

We also wired up a "bypass" toggle switch to bypass the lamp's vane microswitch. We did this because they get clogged with dirt and won't turn on. Of course, we rarely told anyone about this switch except people who knew what they were doing.

Now, your situation seem a bit akward because while you can wire up something to prevent accidents, you also can't make people smart and troubleshoot correctly. You also can't control what some well-meaning fool will do with the wiring.

All our roof top fans have a switch right on the fan for servicing. You might check if your do; that would save the relay. While it's true someone might shut it off to change a belt, then forget to turn it back on, there has to be some intelligence in the booth, or all is lost.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 06:24 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The safety switch by the fan motor is a electrical requirement in Washington State, And I believe it is also required by the NEC.

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-28-2001 06:55 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry if I was unclear. The intention is NOT to change, in anyway the wiring in the console, but only to make sure the roof exhaust comes on, when they power up the consle.

I agree that the sail switch (which is an integral part of the console) should NOT ever be bypassed.

There is a local switch at the motor itself which allows for disconnection for belt changing, ect.

The switch I am talking about by-passing is the wall switch which turns on the roof exhaust. This switch SHOULD be turned on at the beginning of the day, and turned off (with auto time-out) at the end of the day. This is the switch that some of them tend to forget.

I understand your point, Paul, but I fear that this might involve another abandoned performance. Besides, I am not sure I want to run two motors through the TA-10.

I would like to fashion it in such a way that they do not have to remember to turn this switch on, it is done automatically for them.

The 7K consoles are often fed by a 60-amp breaker. Not sure I want to run this line up to the exhaust fan. Should the exhaust motor short, it would provide an entertaining fireworks display for those in the parking lot, but might really piss off the fire-insurance company.

These people who run this equipment, unfortunately, do not have the dedication and passion for the industry that is found in those of you on this forum.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 10:00 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can you change out the sail microswitch from a SPST to a DPDT and rig it so that one side powers an annoying buzzer when the fan is off?

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 10:31 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry, that's a very good point. Hopefully, the buzzer would be loud enough (125db SPL "C" weighted) to wake up the un-dedicated individuals before they punch the button.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 10:50 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rick said: "The obvious solution should be better staff training, but with most of the booth personnel are there only as a "summer job" (projectionist licensing having been done away with in Ontario), this would be a never-ending job", and "With some of our theatres being equipped with 7K bulbs, the results are not only expensive in terms of shortened bulb life, but in heat damage done to reflectors and lamphouse wiring, not to mention cracked heat filters", and "These people who run this equipment, unfortunately, do not have the dedication and passion for the industry that is found in those of you on this forum."

And people still wonder what ails the motion-picture exhibition industry? The bean counters just don't get it.

One premature lamp explosion or one lost show will more than offset the savings in not paying enough to retain skilled (or even just competent) projectionists.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-28-2001 11:13 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rick, how about if you replace the regular fan wall switch with a breaker/switch combination, and then wire it to that 60amp breaker? I've seen switches that look generally like a regular wall switch, but are also a circuit breaker. That way the fan is protected with a lower amperage breaker.

I've never seen where a bulb lasted longer or performed better when the cooling fans were left on (after the end of show.) I suppose there are some lamphouse makes that would contain the heat; I've never seen one.

If someone told me they need to leave the fan on after shutting off the lamp, I would say that there's probably not enough air flow even when running in the first place.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-28-2001 11:29 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stack blowers and lamphouse blowers should be left running for at least 10 minutes after the lamp is extinguished.

Some older lamphouses (Xetron for instance) extinguished the lamp by dumping the blower in the lamphouse with hopes that the sail switch would open the interlock circuit. I guess they wanted more xenon lamp sales...

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-28-2001 11:38 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"One premature lamp explosion or one lost show will more than offset the savings in not paying enough to retain skilled (or even just competent) projectionists."

Actually (sad to say) I don't think it does. Equipment is pretty reliable nowadays, and with modern automation systems that shut down for platter wraps, fans that stop turning, etc. usually very little actual damage is done. Of course, patron good will is severely affected, but since that's a cost that can't be easily be counted, the bean counters ignore it.

Here in the northeast, I would guess a theater company would have to pay at least $30,000 a year for just competent operators. Things are just too expensive around here, and I think that would be the mimimun to keep someone interested. (By way of comparison, the average price for a 2 bedroom house on 1/4 acre here is now $250,000.)

We don't even come close to loosing that (from incompetence.) Even if a show is lost, it's only 10% of the box office. About three years ago, someone on r.a.m.t newsgroup semi-proved (meaning the numbers they cited were reasonable) that not maintaining and just replacing a projector after 6-8 years was actually cheaper than paying for it's maintaince. (It was mostly labor costs, not parts.)

So, although the bean counters are usually soul-less people with no idea of showmanship, pride or quality, I have to admit that (from a purely money standpoint) they are right.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 09:23 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm sure you guys already know this, but if you've got to use the main breaker to turn the consoles off, there are switch rated breakers desgined for this purpose that will directly substitute for the non-switch rated ones.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-29-2001 10:49 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All breaker panels used in proj. rooms in canada are required to be switch rated
You could wire the exhaust fan to turn on with the rectifier with a relay as sujested but also it might be advisable to use a timedelay styled relay so the fan relay would maintain contact for the blower until 10 after the rectifier breaker turns off

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Dennis Atkinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 129
From: Birch Run Michigan
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 06-29-2001 04:53 PM      Profile for Dennis Atkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Atkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Connecting to the rectifier with a relay is the straight forward way to do the job.
Either that or put a DO NOT TURN ON label on the exhaust fan switch

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