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Author Topic: SDDS / SRD reliability
John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-02-2001 06:48 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was talking to our district manager today, and he says our company is starting to see a lot of higher failures rates on SDDS and SRD prints. He thinks it's because the emulsion is getting scraped off by the trap rails, etc. That is why (he says) he is beginning to perfer DTS.

My first thought was that "someone's not cleaning that hard junk the builds up on the trap runners (most of our projectors are Simplexes.)

But he swears that is not the case; they are cleaned fairly regularly. He's pretty good at checking this; he goes right into the booth and looks at the projectors. So while he's not sure what causes the high error rate, the projectors are being kept clean.

Does anyone else have any general thoughts about this?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-02-2001 07:09 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps an old lamp/LED in the Dolby Digital reader? It could also be slightly misaligned. But my guess is that the LED is starting to get dim.

As far as SDDS is concerned, I think you have to replace the LEDs once a year. Not quite sure on that. SDDS is notorious for cutting in and out.


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Ken Jacquart
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: San Francisco, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-02-2001 11:56 PM      Profile for Ken Jacquart   Author's Homepage   Email Ken Jacquart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Joe is right, you should check your Dolby Digital Reader's LED video amplitude. It may be low and causing drop-outs (below 2.0V as measured on an oscilloscope at the video test points... Cat 670 card). I would recommend checking this once a year, or whenever there is a suspected problem. The video amplitude is set for 4.0 volts at the factory. If the video amplitude checks out okay, then verify the other alignment paramaters... focus, lateral and azimuth.

Good Luck,
ken

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-03-2001 12:39 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, but remember, I'm not thinking of a few units. This problem of high error rates are a general impression of well over 100 SDDS and (mostly) SR-D units.

Of course, I wish I had some hard data to support this "impression" the district manager has regarding the units. Is there any was for a DA20 to internally log the degradation? We don't have enough PC's to leave connected to all the units to monitor!

I'm not sure how many lamp vs. LED Dolby readers we have, or even how many are basement readers. Do the LED readers stay in alignment longer than the older regular lamp type? Do you think that the (regular lamp type) should be changed more often than the manual recommends? Are basement readers still considered less reliable than the Cat 700 type?

Does SDDS really suggest changing LED once a year? The LEDs only come on (full) when the reader sprocket is turning. Does the manual say how many hours you can expet from the LEDs? Do they stay in alignment?

I know I'm being a bit vauge with my statement of our problem, but I guess I'm trying to see if this is fairly common. I guess I'm in the early "fact-gathering" stage to see if they fail more often then we know.

Just as an example; if we were to find out, say, that there was a high error rate at theaters that used compressed air to clean, we would have a clue whats causing the problem and ask the operator to clean differently to prevent it.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-03-2001 01:30 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I honestly don't know what the best frquency for changing out the SDDS LEDs would be, but I was told that they would only last 2000 hours (the first units only lasted 1000 hours). Remember that SDDS uses an LED ARRAY. You can't tell just by looking at it if one LED in the array goes out or grows dim. But if one of them does, you can start seeing degradation in your digital performance.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-03-2001 03:08 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just left a theatre that had 2 portable dolby digital units (that usually just stay on the big houses) that use cat 700 lamp readers.
I never once knew these to fail...the only time i remember having a dolby digital problem was with a bad reel on forces of nature (i think it was that).

SDDS was very problematic until that theatre actually got a booth manager and the LED arrays were changed and calibrted.
This was on the 200 models.
Im not sure either how long they are supposed to last because i never had to deal with them.

sony did just come out and do a reader upgrade and changed all the LEDs so well see how long they last.

The 3000 models have one LED that ive been told is never supposed to go bad.
These were put into the theatre i now work at and weve had problems with them not reading properly since opening day.
Also, the analog these new SDDS units produce has never been satisfactoy in my opinion.

If it were up to me, the theatre would not have any sdds and i would go with either dolby digital or dts for my sound system.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-03-2001 10:14 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James wrote: "...i would go with either dolby digital or dts for my sound system."

Actually, that's what started this. I asked the DM why we don't just buy all SR-D. (It's not that I don't like DTS, I'm just thinking of easier maintaince; and while some films do not come out in DTS, almost everyone uses SR-D.)

Dispite the doom and gloom economy, we are not only still building theaters, but are going back to older analog screens and installing digital.

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Nic Margherio
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: St. Louis MO, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-03-2001 12:24 PM      Profile for Nic Margherio   Email Nic Margherio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The SDDS 2000 model reader LED's can also be checked for proper voltage using an oscilliscope, and the CCD gain can be increased throughout the life of the LED's to compensate for dimming. It's not reccomended to simply change the LED's arbitrarily without checking CCD gain and flatness first. Call SCPC for the tech note regarding this adjustment, they can fax it to you right away.

James, I disagree with you about the DFP-3000. I have found the new reader to be far more reliable than the 2000's. If you are having problems with digital tracking, try running the R3000 auto-align program from a laptop computer. This tech note is also available from SCPC. Perhaps the equipment installers did not do this at installation and the readers are a little bit out of alignment from shipment? Just a guess, but is definately worthwhile to give it a try.

Also, I have found the analog portion of the DFP-3000 to be quite good, almost as good as the comparable Dolby processor, the CP500.

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Ken Jacquart
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: San Francisco, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-03-2001 12:30 PM      Profile for Ken Jacquart   Author's Homepage   Email Ken Jacquart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John wrote, "Do the LED readers stay in alignment longer than the older regular lamp type? Do you think that the (regular lamp type) should be changed more often than the manual recommends? Are basement readers still considered less reliable than the Cat 700 type?"

I wouldn't say that the LED readers stay in alginment any longer than the older style halogen lamp readers. Be aware that although the hologen bulbs seem never to burn out, they absolutely will develop a permanent haze on their reflector which can severely reduce video amplitude. I recommend changing the halogen lamp when it fogs, or perhaps once a year (okay, you can maybe get two years before you notice any fogging). Basement readers can be just as reliable as penthouse readers depending on projector and use (or abuse).

ken

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-03-2001 12:31 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nic wrote"Also, I have found the analog portion of the DFP-3000 to be quite good, almost as good as the comparable Dolby processor,the CP500."
That I will disagree with I find there SR emulation very harsh and I alway have felt there EQ to be rather brittle sounding.
As far as I am conscerned the best thing SDDS could do is bring out a equivelent of a DA20 that has just the 8 analogue outputs and leave the rest to the cinema's processor

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-03-2001 01:33 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The SDDS instruction sheet is in the manual download section under field bulletins, but does require an oscilloscope to adjust. It can be a bit finicky to get tweeked just right, but once it is the reader shouldn't give any problems for at least 6 months.

The internal eq in those units is too harsh and digitized sounding for my taste anyway and I have taken to bypassing it and utilizing the eq circuitry in the Dolby processor, which just wastes money on that part of the SDDS player that is no longer being used. However I have obtained magnificent results when wired in this manner. Why the need to offer internal eq in the first place is beyond me.

If you've got a cat700 SRD penthouse, be sure and check that power supply/molex connector. I've had a couple that would damage the lamp after a month or so running.


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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-03-2001 03:37 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe there was a Dolby field service bulletin re: cat 700 molex connectors and the fix is to cut the thing off and wire-wrap the leads to the posts, provided the PC board has not become a crispy critter yet- then you have to go directly to the board or the alternate set of terminals if they are still OK. Same for the DA20 power supply cable, ,the molex is a weak point.

Aaron

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-04-2001 12:46 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SDDS' equivalent to the DA-20 is the DFP-D2500. It uses the 3000 series reader but is only an attachment, like the 2000 was. Also, for you changeover houses, it has two input streams unlike the previous SDDS and Dolby Digital where there is merely one that is switched.

So far, the only SR emulation that I have found pleasing is the Dolby CP-650...none of the other analog (including Dolby's CAT222SR/A) nor digital attempts sound good to me...very harsh and non natural. So far, the CP650 has been a pleasing sounding processor for both digital and analog....I was pleasently surprised.

I have not found the SDDS processors to have the brittleness described but I have found that the SDDS pink noise as generated in the 2000 to have an HF roll off as compared to either the Cat. 85 or CE SG-1 pink noise generators...as such if the same person tunes both the SDDS and another processor, the SDDS will sound more strident.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-04-2001 01:11 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe I'm just a moron, but why would Dolby "emulate" SR in the CP-650? Couldn't they just use the real thing since they were the ones that came up with it?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-04-2001 05:22 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't the reason why Dolby is "emulating" SR with the CP-650 because the optical A and SR type tracks are handled in the digital realm? You don't have the same, authentic SR cards like what are found in CP-65 and CP-500 processors. I haven't heard a CP-650 in action yet, but I have read some negative criticism about it (particularly with how it handles analog tracks) on the Usenet in rec.arts.movies.tech.

On the subject of reliabilty, easy maintenance, installation and all that other good stuff, I don't see how DTS can be beat. Changing out LEDs every year? I thought a decent LED was supposed to have at least 10,000 hours of good life.

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