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Author Topic: Ballantyne flicker
Scott Balko
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 136
From: Redwood Falls, Minnesota, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-19-2001 10:48 PM      Profile for Scott Balko   Email Scott Balko   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My Pro 35's have a shutter flicker that is somewhat annoying. I figured that with the short throw of my screening room that a 2000 watt lamp may be the culprit. When I de-focused the lamp, it was considerably better, but it was still there. I timed the shutter just to be sure that wasn't it and I noticed that there was a considerable amount of time that the shutter was completely blocking the aperture before and after the intermittent movement. Could the shutter be taylored to block the light immediately before int. motion and then to open immediately after? Would trimming the secondary shutter gate (the one that is on the other side. I don't know what to call it ) be advisable if the shutter was rebalanced afterward, or wouldn't that even make a difference?

Maybe I should ask if I'm even digging in the right place. My lamp isn't the source of the flicker. I already checked. It is definitely shutter oriented. Any suggestions would be great!!

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-20-2001 12:58 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you can change the machine to a three bladed shutter.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-20-2001 02:09 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott, it still sounds like the shutter timing is still off. Time it exactly as the book says. Unfortunately, you might have to do it several times until you get it right. They can be very touchy...

If the ghosting was in both directions, you might have a drive-in shutter on that machine. If so, replace it with a standard indoor shutter.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-20-2001 06:50 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Flicker" usually has nothing to do with the shutter timing. Excessive screen luminance makes shutter flicker more visible, so be sure the screen luminance does not exceed the 12-22 footlambert range allowed by SMPTE 196M. To virtually eliminate shutter flicker, use a 3-blade shutter to raise the interruption rate from 48 cycles to 72 cycles. But a 3-blade shutter is only half as efficient as a 2-blade shutter, so you will need twice the lamp power to maintain the same light level.

Many studio and lab screening rooms use 3-blade shutters because they want to completely eliminate flicker, and the relatively small screens don't require very high light output to maintain the aim of 16 footlamberts. A home screening room likewise is a good place to use 3 blades. Large screens need lots more light, so 3-blades are impractical for very large screens.

Sometimes, even if there is no visible flicker without the shutter running, and an annoying 12 Hz flicker when running, the problem is AC ripple in the lamp power supply. The 48 or 72 cycles of the shutter "beat" with the 60 Hz. AC ripple component, showing up as a 12 cycle flicker.

If you have TRAVEL GHOST, then check the shutter timing.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Scott Balko
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 136
From: Redwood Falls, Minnesota, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-20-2001 09:36 AM      Profile for Scott Balko   Email Scott Balko   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The three blade shutter sounds like the ticket. I've got plenty of lamp for it. So how do I go about getting one, two in my case. Change-overs you know.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-20-2001 09:42 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How big is your screen? a 2K lamphouse (especially if it is efficient) is for a 28' approx. screen size.
You probably have 2 much light
Use the SMPTE 35PA test film and look fopr travel ghost in the black blocks.
If it is a screening room a 3 blade shutter is advisable. I don't think there is one for the pro35 nor do I believe they made a drivein shutter for it

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-20-2001 02:48 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

Was it a flicker or a ghosting problem? For some reason I thought it was a travel ghost problem.


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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-21-2001 12:05 AM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gonna assume that you projected light without the projector running (shutter blade out of the way, and the change-over blade held open with a coat-hanger). It the light appears steady, the bulb is probably not at fault.

Now, if when the projector is running, you obseve noticeable flicker, I would think it is probably the result of the 48 Hertz exposure from the projector, "beating" with the 60 Hertz ripple from the rectifier. This would likely be caused by a failing filter capacitor in the rectifier. It can be proved by parallelling the existing capacitors with another unit of the same size (micro-fard (uuf) and votage rating).

As has been mentioned, in a rectifier that passes spec, "shutter beat" can be noticed if the screen illumination is excessive.


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 12:31 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott, we still don't have all the information. It was not indicated what voltage and current the lamp is being operated with.

Rick and John, in addition to what you gents said, there is a possibility of a bad diode in Scott's power supply. But nobody knows yet with the info we have, because nobody hinted about the current and voltage at the lamp. It could be the 12hz strobe he is seeing. We'll just have to wait and see until Scott gives us more information.

I never had the problem like Scott's when using a 2000 watt lamp on a Pro-35....But yes, Gordon may be correct when he said "too much light".

I believe Gordon is also correct about the availability of a three wing shutter or a drive-in shutter. Unfortunately, some theaters have the local machine shop "butcher" the shutter and re-balance it for a drive-in application.

After reading Scott's original post on the way the shutter is positioned before and after pull-down, he either has too much light on the screen - or there is a ripple problem due to bad filtering or a blown diode. But here again, I don't know if his problem is on just one or both machines, and when it started.

It is possible that if he throttles his bulb back a little, his problem might go away if it is just "too much light", or use a 1600 watt lamp.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-21-2001 04:13 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
If it is a bad diode, viewing the light on the screen without the projector running can be deceiving and give the impression of a flickerless light source. Always have the projector running. Since you have two projectors and did not make a notation about only one machine having the flicker, I will assume that both do and the odds of a diode being bad in both rectifiers is very slim.

Hold one of the lenses of a pair of sunglasses in front of the lens and see if the flicker is still there. If it is, you have a bad diode. If it goes away, you need to get that 3 bladed shutter, run with a lower wattage lamp or defocus the bulb. You might also want to consider using some heat filters as well to cut down on the amount of light transmitted to the film (as well as to reduce the heat on the film).


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Rick Long Jr
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 211
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 03:10 PM      Profile for Rick Long Jr   Email Rick Long Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An old projectionist once told me that a flat black shutter blade produces less flicker than a plain metal blade. He had removed all of the blades from his Amateur 35's and sprayed them black. I have never had the opportunity to try this myself and fortunately we have uninstalled almost all Ballantyne projectors in this area. I know most Century and older Cinemeccanica blades were black. Any one else ever heard of this?

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Scott Balko
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 136
From: Redwood Falls, Minnesota, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 06:46 PM      Profile for Scott Balko   Email Scott Balko   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry I haven't been able to give you all the information you need. Film is just a hobby for me and my job (not film related) takes most of my time on weekdays.

First off, I wasn't referring to a ghosting problem. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. My problem is definitely a shutter flicker. If I leave the light on through the aperture and shut the motor off, the flicker follows the speed of the shutter to a tee.

I know that I definitely need to put in smaller lamps for one thing as my power supplies are only rated for 1600 watts. They have been modified with the cooling fans for higher continuous output, but it simply isn't enough.

I'm also still in the setup mode, so I haven't been able to do a direct side by side comparison. The one thing I did notice, however, is that the power supply I've been refering to won't hold a steady amp or voltage reading. The amperage will drop slightly and at the exact time the voltage will increase slightly. The other lamp/power supply combination was rock steady. From this sketchy description, is it possible to determine if the problem is in the lamphouse or the power supply? My next step was going to be to switch the power supplies and see if that changes anything.

Will a 1500-1600 watt lamp go directly in place of the 2000? If so, anyone wanna trade?

BTW, I liked the comment about the "Amature 35".

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-21-2001 07:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lamp interchangablity depends a lot on the make of lamphouse and rectifiers
also how big is the screen

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 08:06 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rick:

A black or anodized shutter blade will absorb the energy, rather than reflecting it back to the lamphouse. So although there will be less stray light bouncing around to deal with, it may run hotter (and be more prone to warp or be damaged by the radiant energy). I don't think it will affect timing and travel ghost, unless there is so much stray light bouncing around that the film is somewhat illuminated during pulldown.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Greg Pauley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Huntington, WV, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 10:13 PM      Profile for Greg Pauley   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Pauley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In addition to all the previous posts, if you are unable to time the shutter on a Pro35 you might want to inspect the fiber gear located on the end of the shutter train were it contacts the vertical shaft. I have seen where a small chunk of the fiber gear will break off causing a shutter ghost but still rotating the shutter. Turn the shutter blade over by hand and see if you feel a dead spot in the rotation of the shutter blade.


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