Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Kino shipped coffee stained print. (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Kino shipped coffee stained print.
Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2001 01:09 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I received this print of The Legend of Rita today.

It had the following note in the can.

4-17-01

To whom it may concern,

"I have been a Projectionist for 30 years and this Print is without a doubt the worst (although most unique) mess that I have ever seen. The film itself is in good condition, but whoever ran this print before me, spilled what appears to be a cup of cappuccino in the cans holding reels 1, 2 and 3. (It now resembles molasses) They also neglected to clean up the mess, I tried but without success because it is so thick. Fortunately the film ran OK and did not stick together but it is a problem. I hope they realize that there is a special hole in hell reserved for those who screw up a print and leave it for the next unfortunate sot to sort out.
I wrote this note to emphasize that the damage was done PRIOR to the film arriving at Allegheny College, and also to alert you to the problem

Gary Williamson
Projectionist
Meadville, PA"

He not only wrote this note, but he called Kino International to complain. They knew about it. Yet almost a month later, they sent it to me.

So immediately get on the horn to Kino and demand another print. They tell me there aren't any others available, so I have to live with this.

I am spitting mad. I haven't touched the print yet. I guess I will try to build it up tomorrow. I will try Film-Guard on the print. But what I really want to do is tell Kino that the engagement is off and I will not show this print.

What would you do?


 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-10-2001 05:14 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Duh Ian. Don't even take it out of the can. Make a stand and DO NOT SHOW THE PRINT. If you run this print, it will just be one more person telling them that prints in this sort of condition are acceptable. If you go through and clean it up, it will just make things even worse. Cancelling playdates is the only way IMHO to get through to the depots and studios.

Besides, most of the time when I hear the phrase "that is the only print", another one appears the next day. In these situations, they do not care and do not want to have to deal with you. It's "to hell with Ian's presentation" in their minds.


 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 06:46 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Praise to Gary Williamson for doing the best he could with a bad situation, and informing the distributor about the problem. Of course Kino International should have made the theater that did the damage pay for a new print, and take this one out of service. Shame that the print stayed in circulation when the damage was so well documented.

Some labs offer the Kodak "Rewash" process RW-1 that may be useful in removing any stains and in rejuvenating the print:
Kodak Rewash Process RW-1

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 05-10-2001 07:16 AM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Brad and John's assesment of your Problem. I would not play this print and let Kino Know it will not be going on the screen. Your patron's deserve and are entitled to a top quality presentation, which this print will not give them. I would then book another picture in it's place.

I would also put an "A frame" poster out front explaining to my patrons why they are not seeing the picture advertised.


 |  IP: Logged

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 08:04 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did you guys miss the comment "The film itself is in good condition"?

I'd verify that, then trash the offending can, reels and leader when it came time to return the film. I'd ship back on cores in whatever box was handy. Only if the print itself were in fact damaged, would I refuse to run it as was suggested.

In a case of a missed showing, when the print is in good condition, you are only punishing the customer. Always try to on the correct party.



 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 08:14 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry: Mr. Williamson's note said "Fortunately the film ran OK and did not stick together but it is a problem.", so it does sound like the print is runnable. But "...it is a problem." implies that there was some damage. The photo shows spilled goop on the film itself.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 08:32 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Which is why I would take the time to check it before writing it off. I'm wondering if the drink was spilled while the film was in the can or when the can was empty and the film just put in on top of the mess. In any event, the note is ambiguous.

Verifying something before taking action only takes a second and can keep the embarassment level down. As I mentioned, I wouldn't run the print if it were damaged.

 |  IP: Logged

Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 12:25 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the point here is that Kino knew about the problem and had a month to do something about it. At the very least, they should have told Ian when he booked the film that, "yes, we have a print available for such-and-such-a-date, but it is not in good condition, would you like to screen it before confirming your booking?"

is in the business of running a theater, not a film inspection depot or AFI's film restoration department. I'm sure he has enough bombs being dropped on him from other sources. Can you imagine if Technicolor sent out films like this? Okay, bad example.

Personally, I would have a look at the print. If it's okay, I'd run it and send it back and tell Kino that I'll never book with them again, thank you very much. (Even better if the film does well!) If it's not okay, I'd cancel the booking and (after re-reading my booking agreement) send Kino a bill for all of the marketing, etc., I did for the film that I couldn't play. They are responsible for providing useable product.

But then again, I'm an a-hole.

 |  IP: Logged

Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2001 05:07 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gee, I guess they figured out I was pissed!

They are sending me reels 1, 2 & 3 from the DVD mastering print. (Do you think they have scanned it yet?)

I pulled out reel #1 and the other two were stuck to it like a unit. The film was sticky through the titles. Thank God I don't have to use it.

But once again, I get to build up a print early Friday morning.


 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 08:19 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's been a lot of (probably justified) spitting at Kino in this thread, but I would like to say something in defence of small-scale art and rep distributors such as Kino, Milestone and Kit Parker in the US and Artifical Eye, the BFI and Gala in the UK.

For a major Hollywood distributor like Warners or UIP, losing a print thanks to the moron who poured a cappuccino all over it is no big deal. The number of prints struck of a mainstream title will vary from a couple of hundred to several thousand. After the opening weekend, a significant proportion of these will probably never be used again. A print written off by a coffee accident is one less they have to pay to send to the recycling people.

For an art or rep distributor, this could well be a catastrophe. These figures will probably not be relevant to the US system, but they do illustrate how much work is done by such a small number of prints over here:

'The Low Down' - UK release with 2 prints
'Bread and Roses' - 20 prints (and that was probably only because of Ken Loach's involvement)
'Sous le sable' - 5 prints
'The Wind Will Carry Us' - 2 prints
'Mildred Pierce' (rerelease) - 2 prints

The several hundred pounds per copy (a lot more if it is laser-subtitled) represents a major investment for the people who distribute these titles. They do not have seven-figure 'P & P' (prints and publicity) budgets, and often struggle to break even. I can well believe that when a projectionist calls in and reports that one of these prints has been trashed, that there is no replacement readily available.

What makes this situation worse is that the kind of places showing these films (e.g. university film societies, community arts centres with miniscule budgets) are precisely the places that are likely to have very little money to spend on equipment maintenance and projectionist training, and so are going to be most at risk of inflicting greater wear and tear and/or damage on the prints they handle. But the distributors are not in a position to say 'OK, we've had enough, you're barred from renting any more of our prints' because they depend on these places for their income.

So really the art and rep circuit is a catch-22 situation in which greater print damage is the result. The fact that these prints tend to do shorter runs in a larger number of venues (hence more making up and packing off) exacerbates the problem.

None of this in any way justifies spilling coffee all over a film. But if I received a film like that, I would probably have a go at cleaning it before making the distributor suffer from a cancelled booking. But if it were a print of 'Star Wars' then I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over rejecting the print.

 |  IP: Logged

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 09:50 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ian, I'm sorry you had the problem. Leo, thank you for saying what had to be said. Art and independent product has always been subject to the jerk with a coffee cup and the brain-dead drone that can't thread.

For those filmmakers, electronic cinema will be a no-brainer because of problems like this. Art and independent of 35mm will be a fondly remembered glory. Who do we have to thank but careless and poorly trained film monkeys? A pox on those who don't care for prints. May their finest life work be spilled on by God's golden stream. (Sorry, this is an issue that I can't believe should even be an issue. I can think of few things so disrespectful of the creative mind.)

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 10:03 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry:

The same "jerk" and "brain-dead drone" will screw up Digital Cinema too. One will probably spill coffee into the server, and the other permanently kill a few thousand pixels by hot-spotting the lamp.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2001 10:37 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to get prints like that all the time, although I have never had one that had coffee spilled on it. I have had cans that are literally falling apart. I have had prints that looked like they had been taken out to the parking lot and dragged through a dirt pile. (Really!) When I ran them through the film cleaner (with FG) I could actually scrape clumps of dirt off the pads. It took me 3, maybe 4 passes to get it playable.

The thing you have to remember is that these companies often don't actually stock the prints. They are continuously circuited. Nobody at the "home office" actually sees this print. Kit Parker was the WORST offender.

I happened to like New Yorker Film the best. I spoke to the guy in their shipping department a couple three times. One one or two occasions Max just told me to ship it off to Film Treat when we were done with it.

Our strategy in cases of crummy films was to complain, complain, complain. (My boss was good at that! ) He has actually succeding in getting discounts or even a total refund in one case.

 |  IP: Logged

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-10-2001 10:38 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Absolutely, John. However the individual work will still be showable without added expense to the creator, and the cost of the cleanup will be borne by the exhibitor who hired the jerk. Seems fair to me.



 |  IP: Logged

Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-10-2001 11:00 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Every print I ever got from Kit Parker, 16 or 35, had some sort of problem with it.

I had a problem once from Films, Inc. on a 16mm print of Willy Wonka. The print literally had hundreds of splices in it and was falling apart in my hands. I called Films, Inc. and we had a brand new print drop shipped straight from the film lab the next day! A week later I get a letter from the company president of Films, Inc appoligizing for the bad print. He stated that the bad print was destroyed and our film rental was FREE. That was the only problem I ever had with them. Their prints were usually excellent.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.