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Author Topic: Caring About Composition
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-07-2001 03:58 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My latest article for Kodak's Cinema Notes is "Caring About Composition":
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/spring2001/pytalk.shtml

(I dedicate this article to Evans Criswell, who is a strong advocate of showing movies in the correct aspect ratio. )

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-12-2001 07:23 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree totally with everything in your article. However, there's a related problem which it does not mention. In Europe, where 1.85 is not the only 'flat' ratio in regular use, further problems are caused by the intended ratio not being communicated to the projectionist and by some cinemas not having the lenses and plates for all the ratios they are trying to show. In the UK, for example, this usually means 1.66 films being shown in 1.85, and in France the exact opposite.

As you've pointed out in another thread, the relevant SMPTE standard for head leaders does specify that the ratio should be marked on them. But, frankly, it's a specification that everyone ignores. I simply can't remember the last time I've shown a print which has had this information printed (as distinct from written on by a projectionist) onto the leader.

In one recent instance - 'Les Convoyeurs Attendant', the cans said 1.85 but several projectionists had written 1.66 on the leaders and tails. If negative cutters and/or labs did what they were supposed to do and write this information on the leaders it would end the confusion. OK, it wouldn't get round the problem of cinemas not having a lens and plate for the correct ratio of the film they are trying to show, but it would be a start. The alternative would be to hard-matte everything to the desired ratio, but that would mean everything having to be step-printed (at least in the interneg stage) and risk hairs in the gate being visible on-screen.

Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 03-12-2001 07:59 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Haven't figured out how I'm going to do it, but for you John, my outdoor screen will have adjustable side masking!

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-12-2001 08:26 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, adjustable masking in an outdoor would be nice if you could make it cost effective. I have never seen it done, but I suppose it could be. Please remember the angle of the screen tilt, the wind that blows at a good clip, the huge screen size, and the mechanical apperatus needed must be able to stand the beating of the elements such as rain, wind, weathering, and itself and anything else that comes along. You might have one helluva maintenance nightmare with movable masking in an outdoor enviroment. You might want to compare the number of scope movies vs flat movies. Most are scope now, but I don't know the percentage figure. If you try it, I hope you have good luck with it.


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-12-2001 09:50 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Leo: That's a good suggestion to try to reach film editors, negative cutters, lab cutters, or whomever is responsible for properly identifying the aspect ratio on the leaders.

I've used a search engine to find possible organizations:
http://www.editorsnet.com/
http://www.ace-filmeditors.org/
http://www.nenm.com/filmedit.htm
http://www.sullivanballou.com/strock/index.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-12-2001 10:03 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For the drive in, how about having masking "panels" that are attached to the sides of the screen on hinges, like a pair of shutters? For a scope picture, the panels would be folded around back of the screen. For a flat picture, the panels (painted flat black) could be swung around to the front, covering the excess screen area. There would have to be some method for locking the panels in place, as well as a means to open and close them, but it could probably work?


Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-12-2001 10:18 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never had any problem with a flat image presented on a scope screen without masking. What I do HATE is the fuzzy side edges from the aperture. My ideal drive-in design would be to have the concession building at least 10 feet larger than the booth that would sit atop. On flat films, two boards could be brought in vertically (perhaps on some kind of hinge arrangement) at the edge of the concession stand (at least 10 feet away from the projector) to mask the fuzzy edges of the aperture, which would produce magnificently razor sharp edges on the flat image, just like a matted 70mm flat movie.


Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-13-2001 11:05 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Brad. On a huge outdoor screen, the boards would brobably sag due to the weight and rip themselves free in the wind. Also, due to the massive forward tilt of the screen, I think they would be very difficult for one person to move, especially when an attempt is made to close or open them. It just seems that way to me.

Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-13-2001 11:06 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, Thanks, John! Great article!

I am very opposed to the showing of scope movies at the flat aspect ratio (Regal Theatres in Huntsville in two thirds of the auditoriums) and the showing of both formats at 2.00:1 (like the old Cobb Cinema 8 did in 7 of their 8 auditoriums).

However, I don't mind the use of top masking in smaller auditoriums as much. There are many smaller auditoriums out there that are 28 feet in width that have high ceilings. In such auditoriums, having a screen with side masking would provide scope images that are up to 26 feet in width, but would limit flat images to a width of about 20 feet. With top masking, the flat images can be made 26 feet wide. It isn't an optimal situation, but at least the aspect ratios are preserved and each image is as large as possible. The real solution is to not build long narrow auditoriums that are 28 feet in width. Build them 32 feet in width (or more) and make the auditoriums less deep so that side masking can be accommodated with good results.

The only practical way that Regal can fix the screens in their 28-foot auditoriums here in Huntsville is to install adjustable top masking. That way, their flat setup would not change, requiring them to buy new lenses for their scope setup. New aperture plates would be needed unless the ones they have could be filed out to show the entire image. I wish someone at Regal would realize how unprofessional the "scope at 1.85:1" practice is here in Huntsville and make it a priority to fix it. It just shows that large theatre companies just don't give a hoot about presentation quality details or adhering to ANSI/SMPTE standards.

If top masking is used, I think it is very important to not let the audience see the masking in the flat position if a scope feature is to be shown. Have the masking set for scope when the audience comes in and leave it that way. Never let the audience see it in the flat position first and have it go down to make the screen smaller afterwards.

About showing flat movies on scope screens: I dislike that practice. If I go to a theatre and the side masking is not pulled in when I see a flat film, due to the fuzzy edges, I usually count off 4 points. The highest grade for such a presentation is typically 96. I'm talking about indoor theatres here, and not drive-ins.

About lack of adjustable masking: I do not deduct for lack of adjustable masking on a per-movie basis because doing so would require that I actually watch a realistic percentage of scope movies shown at 1.85:1. which I prefer to avoid like the plague. Also, deducting for lack of adjustable masking on a per-move basis would allow me to let a theatre's rating be higher or lower based on how many "wrong ratio" presentations I attend at the theatre. Instead, I calculate a facility deduction and apply it after I calculate the average for such a facility. That is, if I see a scope movie at 1.85:1 and everything else is perfect, I give it a 100. If the theatre's overall average is 98.0, and two thirds of the screens lack masking and are 1.85:1-only, then 7.5 points are deducted from the average, giving a 90.5 rating. Another beneficial aspect of using this method is if the problem is corrected in all auditoriums, the theatre's rating instantly goes up and is an accurate reflection of presentation quality at the time, rather than taking 2 to 4 years to slowly move up to the proper value.

Evans A Criswell

These ratings can be seen on my site. In the ratings table, click the theatre name to see lists of rated showings:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~criswell/theatre/


Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 03-13-2001 11:52 AM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, Love your article and I appreciate the knowledge and information you so willingly share with us all.

It is criminal what some operators do, to the projected image, on the screen. It seems to me that some of the film distributor's are also derelict, in their responsibilities to the director's and producers, of the film when they permit it to go to a theatre, that does not present it properly. There was a time in exhibition that presentation was of paramount importance to both exhibition and distribution. I know, at least in New York first run the film companies send in their technicians to work with the exibitor's technician to insure the film is played properly. Many of the distributor's hire the Theatre Alignment Program (TAP) personnel to check these theatres for compliance. Pre 1975 the film distributor's use to have us repair seats, change carpeting, put in new curtains or maskings before booking a picture into an auditorium. This was in the days of the Red Carpet and Blue Ribbon bookings.

Love the creative jucies flowing on the drive in masking. Keep it coming and you will find the solution.

Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 03-13-2001 12:57 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hee, hee, I was being somewhat silly when I talked about the outdoor masking, however I knew it would get us thinking! What is it about the matting that would require it to be 10 feet away Brad? You know, the FLAT print of Chocolat I saw the other night had fuzzy (I described it as jagged aperature plates) sides to it. Is the proper procedure to first try to have proper screen masking, failing that the "matting" near the projector? This print was at the local multiplex, where they DO "fill the wall" and use top masking for Scope. Before I read John's article, I did actually notice some pretty heavy "graininess" in some scenes
(at least it wasn't pixels! ). Brad, for the outdoor matte, I would try a set of "goalposts" that would hinge back to rest against the outer wall of the booth giving room for Scope pictures, and crank forward to matte for Flat. Or, how about something on rails?

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-13-2001 02:41 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Seeing as how difficult moveable masking could be at a drive-in, I was just suggesting a way to at least make sharp edges on the flat images with the posts several feet in front of the lens.

By the way, the TAP guidelines are now available for download in the manuals section under "Instructional Documents".

(Oops, I just realized Ted just started a thread specific to the TAP guidelines. Please post your responses on that thread to keep things together.)


Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-13-2001 07:23 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, I mis-understood your post. Sorry.

What you said sounds like a very good idea - I'll have to fiddle around with it to see what I can get away with in an indoor theater. It could be your suggestion might clear up fuzzy edges when a 1.85 is projected on a 2.35 screen. Thanks.

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 03-13-2001 08:52 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to relate a story here about showing proper ratios.

In 1982, Bob Maar was the general manager at the theater company where I was projectionist/ technician.

We had just finished a 70mm installation in a newly twined (and completely renovated)theater. After projecting some 35PA test film, I was unhappy with the way the lenses and screen sizes had been set up.

1.85 was OK, but scope (although masked to the correct ratio) had a 12% crop. And 70mm was being made to fit on the same ratio screen as scope. Also, the rectifiers were too small (not enough wattage.)

It's tough to get theaters to spend money at any time; even more so to replace new stuff that was just installed. But, as soon as I demonstrated to Bob that it was not right, he approved about $4000 worth of replacement lenses, rectifiers, and labor.

So, while some people will SAY they want screen ratios, etc. done correctly, Bob will actually find the funds to DO it.

Thanks, Bob!

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-13-2001 09:07 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One thing to remember is that cropping any image area is also "throwing away" light --- light that hits the aperture plate never ends up on the screen. So an image area that is cropped 12% is 12% less bright than it could be.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion



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