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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Color temp drift on aging Xenon bulbs? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Color temp drift on aging Xenon bulbs?
Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-16-2001 07:42 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am wondering how much color temp drift should be expected in Xenon bulbs as they age. I mean as they approach 1000 hours. I have a color analyzer and used it (properly I hope) on a 3 chip DLP I have (Electrohome Vista Pro). At the factory preset temp of 6500K, I get color temps of approximately 5100K with 30 and 80 IRE gray fields. The bulb is supposed to be replaced every 1000 hours. I have about 1050 hours on it. I am awaiting delivery of a new bulb. I'm wondering if the bulb's age can explain the discrepancy between the color temp of the preset 6500K setting and the value I obtained?

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 02-16-2001 07:52 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm a film man so I don't no much about those DLP things. I would say that the temperature could change because of the age of the bulb and if it is darkening any. 1000 hrs. That's not very long. Film can still look very good with bulbs that last 4 times that if they are maintained properly.

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-16-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You are not actually measureing the lamp but the output of the prism assembly so there will be colour diffences

Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-16-2001 08:41 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Believe me Darryl, I'm not a "good riddance to film" person. I love film and I am very opposed to DLP replacing 35mm projectors if that means Hollywood will foist garbage transfers on the public. Time will tell how that works out.

Gordon,
That's a pretty good point. I hadn't thought of that. But even so, since the light has to pass through 3 panels anyway, mustn't that have been factored into the 6500K preset? I'm getting my new bulb on Tuesday, but I'm curious if I should expect a higher color temp. The Vista Pro doesn't allow the end user to adjust the color temperature without the service codes and I don't have them.

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-16-2001 10:45 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I asked that question to some engineers at ORC a few years ago. Their answer was that color temperature does not vary over either the life of a xenon bulb nor over the operating current range. Bulbs do get darker as they age or if you reduce current, but they do not change color if they are operating normally (color temp could change if the bulb quartz itself becomes blackened for some reason).

Differences in color between various lamphouses are caused mostly by the reflectors, heat shields, or other components in the optical path. Dichroic coatings and the like certainly do age and can affect color temperature when they do.

Regarding your specific question, were you able to obtain a 6500K reading at any IRE level? If you were, but getting 5100K at 30 and 80, you have some gray-scale tracking issues to deal with. In a machine meant for professional use, there should be enough range in the RGB gain, gamma, and black level controls to achieve a consistent color temperature reading at any level from near 0 to 100 IRE. If your color temp "curve" was fairly smooth, adjustment of these controls may yield improved results. If your curve had some notches in it, that would indicate aging or dirt problems somewhere in the optical path. How smooth was your curve?


Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-16-2001 11:02 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never noticed a change, nor would I expect any. The color of the output is primarily from the gas mix of the incandescent gas ball. If the gas remains the same, current remains the same, and sputter from the electrodes is redeposited, then any shift would be from the selective absorbsion of light by the deposited metal. AFAICT, that absorbsion seems to be pretty much neutral.

Flourescents change because the phosphorescent mix ages and different parts lose their ability to "glow" before others. Standard filament lamps boil off metal, and I think this causes a red shift, but I don't remember the mechanism involved.

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-16-2001 11:15 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Really silly question...

To what degree does the incandescent glow of the hot electrodes contribute to the C.T. of the light?

Probably little, if any but I was just wondering wheter one had to let the lamp get "hot" before making any CT measurements.

I know... I always think about silly things like that but I can't help it. I was born that way. (Like a birth defect?)

Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-17-2001 09:42 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think it would affect it much. Remember that a properly focused lamp spreads the light from the very small gas ball more or less evenly across the screen. Any light from the electrodes would be at off angles, and more likely to illuminate the interior of the lamphouse.

Also, if you've focused a lamphouse with a double reflector, the electrodes in a poorly focused lh look like shadows in comparison to the light from the gas ball. Still, that anode gets awfully hot.


Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 02-17-2001 10:59 AM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the old days of carbon lighting, most of the light produced was from the anode crator, which glowed at some 5000 odd degrees F. Is this the same with xenon fired lamps or does the gas produce most of the light? Those electrodes have to be made of tungsten to stop from melting after all.
Josh

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 02-17-2001 12:08 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The electrodes do ot contribute to the output.
The hole in the collector (if properly designed) is equal to the magnified size of the cathode and the fron t diameter is the limitiation of the anode shadow.
That is why certain reflectors work better with certain lamps

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-17-2001 12:59 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Remember, that in a 3-chip DLP projector, the light goes through dichroic prisms to separate it into red, green and blue portions of the spectrum to be modulated by the DMD chips, and then recombined into "white" light. So the "color temperature" is not only a function of the lamp, but of all the optics involved.

As Paul Mayer notes, gray scale "tracking" is important for any electronic display, to avoid having a color shift as you go from highlights to shadows. The absolute color temperature is not as critical as good gray scale tracking, since the eye will quickly adapt to minor variations in overall color temperature.

FWIW, "daylight" is approximately 5500 degrees Kelvin, and is a mix of sunlight and bluer "skylight". I suspect human vision has evolved optimized for daylight. Xenon and carbon arc lamps provide light that closely approximates daylight.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-17-2001 04:27 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't really think the glow of the electrodes made any difference. I was just wondering, that's all.

Acually, that's one of the more "normal" things I wonder about late at night. I just figure if I didn't think about things like that I probably wouldn't be any good at this job. KnowaddImean?

Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-17-2001 04:34 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I want to thank everyone for their excellent replies. It occurred to me that my contrast settings may have skewed the results as they are not at the defaults. At certain levels, it gives the whites a pink look. That's even mentioned in the manual. I'll take readings next week with the new bulb.

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-20-2001 10:51 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah yes, absolute picture black and white levels should be set before evaluating or setting gray-scale color temps. That way you will have established the dynamic range that you will be working with. Some good PLUGE and 100 IRE test patterns are useful here.

As for the whites going pink at some drive levels, that sounds like the kind of problem many CRT-based projectors have. Data-grade CRT machine designs had to resort to playing with the gamma in the blue channel in order to get enough light output at the upper IRE levels. Which made it impossible to get true grays at all levels (try telling that to a client that's become convinced of your color blindness! ). I don't know the characteristic gamma of DLP or D-ILA imagers or their drive circuits, but I would think that they have fewer problems than CRTs in this respect. It'll be interesting to see the results you get after the new lamp is in place and you've had a chance to play with the various RGB settings.

And regarding John's point about 5500K daylight, one of these days I'm going to read up on how the SMPTE settled on having two different standards for the color of white in the picture business--i.e. film being at 5400K and video being at 6500K. It really bugs me everytime I walk out of a screening room and into an ajoining telecine suite! One of these days...


Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-20-2001 11:00 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting points, Paul. Unfortunately when I replaced the bulb, the projector died. I got an LED error message that warned of "DMD lamp failure". I removed and reseated the bulb several times. Same message. I replaced the original bulb. Same message. Christie Digital tech support says it sounds like I need a new lamp ballast. They told me that this is what happens when someone doesn't replace the bulbs in a timely fashion, but uses the bulbs way past what's recommended (I recently bought the projector "as is"). The new bulb uses more voltage and the "shock" to the lamp ballast causes the failure. I hope I haven't mis-stated his explanation. I'm not a happy camper, but at least it can be fixed. I would appreciate anyone's opinion, if they care to offer it.



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