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Author Topic: More light? Is it possible?
Tim Sherman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 125
From: North Ridgeville, OH, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 04:43 AM      Profile for Tim Sherman   Author's Homepage   Email Tim Sherman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well story goes i have a drive-in movie theater with a pretty large screen (118'x 50') right now i am running an orc 6000 lamphouse with a 5,000 watt xenon, a simplex 35 projector, and a brand new schneider reverse anamorphic and back-up. im running a regular speed intermittant. i would love to get more light to the screen. i am thinking of first upgrading to a 6,000 watt xenon and running both water and air cooling on the projector. how do you think this will work and is there anything else you think i should do to prepare for the change. i have thought of a high speed intermittant, but i know they are expensive and or hard to find. and i have heard very hard to make it reliable in the machine. is there anything else that i can do to get more light out of this machine? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Come on out to the drive-in and spend a night out with the stars

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 07:11 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm thinking that you might want to investigate a company called Protolite. I haven't seen mention of them in recent years, but they used to advertise a "Mirror Image" silver lenticular screen as a drive-in containment screen. The combo of lenticular and silver allowed them to get a _4.0_ gain screen across a standard DI field. The last address I have for them is 985 Timothy Drive, San Jose CA 95133 ph 408-971-9700.

I have a little sample of their screen material. It can best be described as a very fine corduroy/canvas with a silver plastic overcoat. The stuff really works, AND increases the contrast, giving a better picture, because it rejects most of the ambient light, but could be pricey when covering a screen of that size. Still, the cost of a few 6KW lamps ain't cheap either, and this would be a lot easier on film and result in fewer burned fingers.

While you're spending... Gratuities gladly accepted.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-12-2000 08:02 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Try a Century DAW projector. With it's two counter-rotating shutter blades, it should give you more light. It also has water cooling.

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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-12-2000 11:58 AM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Forget theidea of a bigger lamp. It is not worth the try. Some figures according to a Bauer sales leaflet from 1979:

Lumen output of Bauer U 3 projector with single bladed 2880 rpm shutter (standard projector, not the drive in gear/ shutter type)
Horizontal Xenons, 35 mm film (1:1.17 window)
1600 Watts 10500 lumens
2500 Watts 13000 lumens
4000 Watts 14000 lumens.

7kW for 70 mm projection only. Will harm 35 mm even with air cooling of film. (Same statements from Strong's Super Lumex brochure.)

Output 70 mm with 4 kW: 22000 lumens.

It seems the maximum light output vs. lamp energy is around 2 kW.
The only way to get brighter images is the use of bigger film formats (no longer possible) or better transport to steady state relations, by use of specific "Drive In" projector gears.
Theese gears used to be more common, when Drive Ins were "bigger business", but still some makers advertise "Open Air" specials.
But maybe someone still has one of those accelerated gear projector mechanisms.
And of course the mentioned higher gain screens, which in turn narrow the usable angle, and which can be somewhat costly.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-12-2000 01:22 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Your problem is with that junker ORC lamphouse. Get rid of it and you will have LOTS more light with another type. Check Christie's SLC line as well as what Strong is putting out these days. ORC lamphouses are light sponges.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 01:33 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This got me curious about the edge falloff and gain of the silver Protolite screen, so I took my sample and stuck it in front of my slide projector to get a subjective view.

Because of the bumps (lenses in very loose terminology) on the screen it is highly direcional in one direction, falling off rapidly if moved more than 15 degrees or so. In the other direction, it is quite forgiving and a decent image can be seen up to maybe a 60 degree angle. Dead on is of course the brightest, but it isn't as glarey bright as one gets from a matte silver screen.

I don't know about a 4 gain, though. Subjectively, the picture looked maybe twice as bright, with little sparkleys in the brighter areas. These sparleys should be minimal once you get further back than a few feet like I was.

A warning, if the screen tower is not properly canted toward the field, this type of screen could be worse than a matte screen.

Reflecting back, (ouch) I've seen less expensive sheet vinyl wallcovering with vertical ridges. I wonder how this would reflect if painted silver?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 01:34 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you can find one in good repair, a 5:1 "drive-in" intermittent will allow you to decrease the shutter blades from about 90-degrees to 72 degrees, giving you significantly more light. They do tend to be noisier, and put more stress on the film perfs, but this should not be a major issue in a drive-in with durable polyester prints. A water-cooled gate is highly recommended for really large lamps, as the film and finger contacting components stay cool.

Keep your screen surface in good repair, and paint it frequently. Someone mentioned using a mix of white and metallic paint to increase gain. If you do use a more "mirror like" surface, you may have a limited viewing angle, or need to curve the screen.

Do all you can to shield the screen from stray lights like signs and streetlights.

Consider the new "red barrel" Isco lenses, which are a new design that allow more light efficiency without significant loss of image quality.

If that ORC lamphouse is the less efficient vertical design, consider going with a more efficient horizontal lamp. You don't really get much more light in going from 6K to 7K.

Be sure your alignment is "on the money", and you are not "hot spotting" the film. Run a loop of a dark scene trailer a few hundred times to be sure you are not causing heat damage to the film. A silver-image black-and-white print would be the most sensitive to heat damage.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-12-2000 01:53 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Which model projectors had drive-in intermittents manufactured at one time for them? Anyone know? Any still being made new?

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David Kilderry
Master Film Handler

Posts: 355
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-12-2000 05:31 PM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim,

A subject close to my heart!

What follows is all tried and tested stuff on a circuit that once boasted 40 drive-ins!

1. You can run 7KW xenons in the right lamphouse. We run 7k with no scorch or hot gate problems in Kinoton lamphouses with water cooled gates and cold light mirrors. The gate is cool to the touch and the curved gate prevents popping. The light is brilliant.

I imagine you can get similar results with Strong and Christie but have the heat shields in place! Today's modern efficient lamphouses leave stuff like the Bauers U3's mentioned in another era. They were good at the time and we used them in many drive-ins.

If you cannot afford an upgrade here, run the correct lamp for your lamphouse and power supply.

Keep mirror correctly aligned and clean, same with the glass heat shield.

2. Use a new lens from Isco or Schneider and keep it clean. If your lens has had drive-in use for over 8 years it is inefficient and costing you light and contrast.

3. Pull the port glass out and run blowers.

4. Use a light efficient projector as mentioned like a Century DAW.

5. Shield the screen from as much extreanous light as possible. Turn external flood lights away if you can, use trees and screening walls to remove all those man-made contrast killers -( term copyright John Pytlak and Kodak).

If each of these gives you 6% more light, you will be 30% better off! That is a minimum from my experience. Most drive-ins have screens too big for today's field sizes and old equipment. The ones that do it right have good light.

We put up with drive-in screens with 2 - 3 footlamberts for too long and the patron cannot always put a finger on why an indoor theatre looks better, but believe me it is one of the main reasons. On a 60 - 80 foot wide drive-in screen having 10 footlamberts is amazing to see. Good luck.

David

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 07:33 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kerry Segrave's book talks extensively about the elusive quest for the "containment screen". Actually having a sample of the stuff is kind of rare Jerry, hang onto it. Some companies apparently tried to develop a material that could "plex" your DI on one screen. Perhaps this came by default when they realized that they were getting a very narrow field much like you mention Jerry. So then they thought you could plex by placing your projectors in different areas and letting multiple movies "bounce" off the same screen to specific areas of the theatre!

Interestingly, I heard that recently someone tested a 3M refelective product called Scotchcal. This is used in vinyl signmaking, basically the same as reflective roadsigns. This could easily be applied in rolls to your screen, but I believe you'd have the same problem, too narrow a field. I have a vinyl cutter, but no reflective material right now, or I'd test it.

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 08:56 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've not only got the material, I have the flyer that went along with it. You have to remember that I've been a 3-D nut for more years than most circuits have been in existence.

I suppose that if you used this stuff rotated at 90 degrees, you could "plex" a single screen. Interesting idea, however I feel sure that it was meant to be used with the wide lateral viewing angles and a tight control top to bottom. Side views of many DIs are obscured by trees, but that shot over the back fence can be a killer. I seem to remember nickel coated screens being touted as a containment screen solution at one point.

Scotchcal is a tough clear polyester film (Wait-a-minute! What is running through projectors?) and not a reflective product. Most of the reflective products it protects are made from glass micro beads that are only partially embedded in a paint or plastic. The beads take advantage of internal reflections within the sphere to aim the beam back along the axis of entry. Slick trick, but too directional for a decent movie screen. BTW, reflective beads don't hold polarization, so they don't work for 3-D.

True containment screens would almost have to use the same type of black grid or slats in front of the screen that the pre-lenticular free vision 3-D pictures used.

In any event, a silver screen with proper surface texture will greatly improve light levels. Outdoors, it might need periodic cleaning to maintain an even reflectivity.

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 12-12-2000 10:55 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Always the problem: How to get more energy through a small hole without burning film.

Larger lamps generally produce more energy, but not necessarily more light. Light gain is NOT proportional to wattage.

The ORC lamps you've got are not terribly light efficient. The newer technologies (am I allowed to mention STRONG) and reflectors are much more efficient in getting light through the aperture and into the lens. There's still the energy issue but you might as well do it with 4000W instead of 6 or 7000.

The Simplex Projector probably has an adjustable two-wing shutter on it, so the opening can be increased. Assuming the film can "take the heat", adjust the shutter opening wider in 1/2-inch increments until you see ghosting appear top and bottom on test film. Then close up the opening slightly and you've maximized the efficiency of the projector for those conditions of projection. Again, watch the heat. By opening the shutter, the film is exposed for a longer time to the light energy.

What lenses are you using? Since you've got a Reverse Anamorphic, I assume these are pretty long focal lengths. Lenses can make a difference in light throughput, and the nice thing is they are after the film.

Good luck and keep us advised...

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 12-13-2000 06:13 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry, 3M's "Scotchcal" must be a very generic-type brand, they also use it on the rolls of vinyl for signmaking. I don't know if anyone ever demonstrated a single-screen "plex" or not, I think it was more an "idea" after they figured this stuff wouldn't work. It would be interesting to see the literature. I'll try and get some of the vinyl and see what happens.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-13-2000 07:35 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 3M retro-reflective material is used for front-screen projection visual effects. A beam-splitter is used to project a background scene onto a retro-reflective screen behind the actors on the set --- the "gain" of the screen is so high (basically a mirror) that it matches the set lighting on the actors.

These materials are much too directional to use as a movie screen in a theatre --- they reflect almost all the light directly back to the projector, and almost none elsewhere.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-13-2000 08:25 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pat M., Mark G., Gordon M., John E., and others:

Which projectors had optional 5:1 "drive-in" intermittents available? I have seen a rebuilt Simplex intermittent (from Wolk) with the additional linkage to give the faster pulldown, and heard there were others.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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