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Author Topic: Drive In Radio Sound (need help)
Chris Erwin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 195
From: Olive Hill,KY
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-09-2000 11:13 AM      Profile for Chris Erwin   Email Chris Erwin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I need to know what you guys (or gals) are running in your drive ins to get good radio sound. What transmitters are you using? (AM and FM) I'm just doing some investigating, here and there, and wanted to know what my Film-Tech friends have to say. Here's the stuff I've heard about...

LPB (AM and FM) I used an AM LPB at the radio station I worked at.

Decade (FM) I've heard this one on the air too.

Radio Systems (Phase II series transmitters, I think)

Catel

Marble "Skycaster" units ...only heard about them.

If you can tell me anything on these or other units, let me know please.

Thanks,
Chris

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-09-2000 12:11 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you want to save a pile of money, there's a build-it-yourself kit (like the old Heathkit radios) from Ramsey Electronics (www.ramseyelectronics.com).

It's called the model FM-100 Super Pro FM Stereo transmitter kit ($249.95) and has a companion transmitting antenna called the model TM-100 True Match FM Antenna Kit ($39.95).

I built one in about 8 hours and it's a real professional unit with stereo line level inputs and a mike input for paging! It seems to be very stable and has good limiting free from distorion or frequency drift. The transmitting frequency is the range of standard FM broadcast band 88-108 mhz and you can program the frequency by going into test mode and holding the up/down buttons till you see the freq you want on the digital display. It has eeprom memory to hold frequency without need of battery backup. With the TM-100 antenna it covers the drivein field quite nicely.

It's worth a try if you like building things (or known a tech who could assemble it for you).


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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 12-09-2000 12:44 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can get a good look at the Decade range of products at www.decade.ca .

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-09-2000 02:33 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doesn't SMART have something as well? I know they have (or, at least, had at one time) an FM transmitter thingie for the hard-of-hearing.

I think Ken's idea sounds like the best solution, even if you have to pay someone a couple hundred dollars to assemble it.

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-09-2000 03:46 PM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken's idea is a good one. When setting the audio drive level, be cautious not to over-deviate. Good way to do this is by using a piece of film with a very high level sound track (your favorite monster trailer) and compare the loudness over a good quality FM receiver to other stations on the dial. The loudness of the film audio should be approximately the same as a loud FM rock station, no more.

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-10-2000 11:50 PM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Especially since digital cinema sound processors have greater dynamic range than auto FM, it seems to me that there should be an expander/compressor/limiter between the sound processor & FM transmitter. Commercial FM radio uses them, & cetainly with material that gets as wide as screaming trailers & quiet scenes a compressor would make listening easier.

There's some used broadcast gear at Harris' site: http://www.broadcast.harris.com/used-eq/

I guess if you were going to have the Cadillac of drive-ins w/FM sound, you'd have a good old analog Orban Optimod! Probably for most ears, a less expensive consumer expander/compressor/limiter in a standalone or multi-effects rack box from a guitars-n-drums music store would work OK. Set it for least compression on a passage w/what you'd consider "normal" level, & let it just crush the screaming trailers down. Those trailers are so compressed already in production, it should hardly be noticed.


------------------
William Hooper
Junk drawer: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/theater/3622
Theatre Empire: http://members.xoom.com/saenger.1

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Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 12-11-2000 05:30 AM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chris, Debrean and I have seen the Ramsey FM 100 Super Pro transmitter that Ken mentioned in use at a couple of drive-ins. They seem to work very well.

I've not built the FM 100 kit but I built one of Ramsey's lower end units for outdoor film show use with my 16mm projectors. I found it very easy to build and the instructions were very easy to follow. I'm sure the pro unit is more involved but I assume that the instructions that come with that kit will be equally understandable. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, you can buy the Ramsey Fm 100 Super Pro in either kit form or factory built.

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-11-2000 05:47 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
William, the compressor is a great idea. There are even low cost compressor IC's available out there that can be home built and will do a very creditable job, without the expense of buying a broadcast unit.

I'm using a compressor on my home cinema, and it does a great job balancing the volume between those screaming trailers and quiet dialog.

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 12-11-2000 07:45 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Somewhat related news from the "drive-in list", apparently inexpensive "Virtual Surround" processors are soon to be available. Originally intended for the home market, they apparently take the surround and channel it to similar (?) effect through simple L/R systems. Of course, this would be great for the drive-ins. Imagine if you will, "This drive-in is now radio-active in high-fidelity virtual drive-in surround sound!" More to follow......

Hey, isn't this like the "virtual stereo" way back when, what was it called?

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-11-2000 08:40 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The instructions that come with the Ramsey FM-100 are just like the old Heathkit instructions---clear, understandable, and easy-to-follow. They do offer it both as a kit (cheapest) or factory built, but the factory built units are only available for use OUTSIDE of the USA. The one I built took me about 8 hours to assemble (they pack alot of goodies into their circuitry). I'm sure the next one I build I could finish in about 6 hours or so. I was surprised at the transmitting range with the companion TM-100 antenna---for low power FM, I got about 3/4 of a mile. That's plenty for a drivein!

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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 12-11-2000 08:51 AM      Profile for Barry Floyd   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Floyd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got one of the "lower end" FM transmitters (FM-25) by Ramsey Electronics... it's OK, but nothing as compared to a Decade unit.

I use it at our church on occassions to broadcast the worship services from the santuary down to the other end of the building to the nursury workers, and I've used it several times with my mobile DJ system.

When we open our drive-in, I'd prefer to use a rack mount model similar to the Decade, or the Skymaster.

I've got an AM transmitter too, but haven't quite yet figured how to hook it up. It's two big bulky "cubes" (about 8" x 8" x 6")that mount on the wall. (I believe it says "LPB Cinematronics" on the name plate)

Drive-In patrons are different type of folks from what I've been able to see. They don't really care about 7 channel surround sound - SDDS, DTS or THX approved systems. Most of the drive-in patrons are there to "experience the drive-in" - not to experience the sound systems. Today's remaining drive-ins are very limited with their abilities to deliver the soundtrack to the customer, something that you "indoor guys" will never have to worry about.

Although keep in mind... drive-in theatres were the "FIRST" to feature "Stadium Parking"

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-11-2000 09:23 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Barry:

LPB is located in Canoga Park, Calif. Here's their phone number: (818) 340-4590

Is your LPB white? Either you have 2 transmitters or you have a transmitter and a coupler (Carrier Current). The carrier current setup superimposes the AM radio signal on the existing field speaker wires for its antenna. This system assumes your field wiring to be in excellent condition (no shorts, breaks, or leaks to ground) otherwise you'd blow the transmitter.

You can rack mount the Ramsey FM-100, just buy a 2U high "rack mount shelf" which is the same thing people do to rack mount their CD players for intermission music.

The Ramsey FM-100 is MUCH better than any of their low-end transmitters. You've got to see all the stuff that goes inside it.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-11-2000 09:36 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken wrote: "I got about 3/4 of a
mile. That's plenty for a drivein!"

In the USA, doesn't the FCC Regulations Part 15 still limit the power and distance of transmissions in the FM and AM broadcast bands? Radiating about 3/4 mile is likely to get some complaints from people having interference on their radios, or upset with their young kids listening to "bad language" movies from the nearby drive-in.

Way back in the late 1960's, when I worked at the Grandview Drive-In, a neighboring conservative church group got on our case when we played the R and soft-X movies in the off season, and teenagers would park next to the lot when they were turned away at the boxoffice.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-11-2000 10:43 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:

The Ramsey kit meets Part 15 requirements for low power FM. The export version of it is equipped with a 5 watt "booster" module installed (you could transmit across town with that one).

The FM-100 puts out about 50 MILLIWATTS (if I remember right, I don't have the manual in front of me). Surrounding terrain, antenna height, antenna placement, and having a metal fence around the theater all affect the distance the signal will travel and reception quality. If the transmitted signal is TOO strong, you can always find a way to reduce it. Remember there are alot of driveins with no neighbors near them.

At the Skyline drive in here in Shelton, we have an old LPB AM mono transmitter with a carrier current coupler into the field speaker wires. To the right of the theater is a couple of 100 acre farms and to the left of the theater is a used car dealer and a gas station. The theater is built on a hillside with a WOODEN fence around most of the property (except for a chain link fence along the back). Carrier Current isn't suppossed to transmit far, but I think being on a hillside must make our system like an "antenna farm" because I can hear our radio signal a mile down the road at the Indian casino before it fades out to nothing.


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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-11-2000 11:59 PM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeff:

With that much range, you'd probably need the whole gate/expander/compressor/limiter bit. The expander would pull up suiet sounds you'd need, & the gate would keep out Whatever else is down there.

Boxes like that used are usually all over pawn shops & rock-n-roll music stores, & with even less compression than most radio stations use I'll bet it would make a big difference in ease of listening to movies on a car radio.

Or find an old CBS Volumax & plug it in for the classic pumping & slamming early top 40 radio sound, if you have a sense of humor & no conscience or mercy. Everything will sound like an action movie trailer, & the folks in the cars will grow exhausted & homicidal.



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