Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Film Guard question (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Film Guard question
Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-04-2000 01:18 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK you guys have convinced me. I have ordered a dry cleaner and a jug of FG. We don't have too much problem with dirty prints etc., but small scratches and dust flecks at changeovers ARE sometimes a problem, so I'm taking the FG step.

How does it behave on splices? Is it possible to splice film that has been FG'd? Or do you have to remove the FG from the film somehow so the tape will stick?

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-04-2000 01:58 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, Brad's the master in this area but I will say that I've never seen FG do anyting to splices. It's probably a smart thing to make sure you're using good quality tape, just for good measure. As long as you are, all you have to do is to wipe the film off with a clean piece of cloth before you splice. The tape should stick even if the film has been treated with FG. (Unless the film is dripping wet with the stuff, but why would you do that?)

 |  IP: Logged

Rory Burke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Burbank, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 10-04-2000 02:04 PM      Profile for Rory Burke   Email Rory Burke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In fact FG helps remove residue from old splices. I use a piece of non-lint soft cotton to wipe any FG before i make a clean splice.

Rory

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-04-2000 05:26 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can tell I've been in this biz a long time.... I meant REEL CHANGES, not changeovers. Haven't done a changeover since 1980. (but I still notice the cues!)

 |  IP: Logged

Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 10-04-2000 09:33 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But COULD a person run the media cleaner/filmguard combo with changeovers? How?

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-05-2000 12:11 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about mounting your media cleaner on the rewind bench and FGing the print while you rewind the reels? I believe they make brackets for just such the thing.

Fail that, you could always buy two media cleaners, but you don't want to go there!

 |  IP: Logged

John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-05-2000 01:12 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the tension issue would be a pitfall in a changeover setup.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-05-2000 02:30 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Not to worry about splices. I do all of my trailer changes never bothering to wipe the area clean. The tape (at least the good Neumade stuff that I use) will adhere perfectly, provided you aren't dousing the bottle on the print. So long as you follow the instructions enclosed, it will never be a problem.

Changeovers...yes it will work. I actually DO prefer the cleaners be projector mounted as opposed to rewind table mounted (notice I said "cleaners". Mounting it on the rewind bench is fine and dandy, but you should rewind the film SLOWLY and with as little tension as is required to make a decent wind. This also applies to changeovers running 6000 foot reels. The ideal tension setting is to get yourself a reel fully loaded with film and completely back off on the back-tension. Start the projector and increase the tension just to the point where the reel does not bounce sharply and won't over spill the film upon startup. Then check the tension at the end of the reel. It should still be very light. Unfortunately, this is very difficult to achieve. (If Mr.Guttag is reading, perhaps he could post his expertise procedure for setting tension and maintaining the pads. )

By the way, Mike be sure and pick a major movie that will be around for a long time ("Get Carter" perhaps?) and use that cleaner and FG exclusively on that one print for as long as you have the print for your "demo/trial". As time passes you will truly understand and be able to appreciate what FG does. It will get better every week. Another fun demo is to monitor the error reading of a SRD or SDDS track on it's first run and compare it in that same auditorium a few months later. There is not the slightest wear, regardless of projector. In fact, my Phantom Menace print that I ran an SDDS/QC report on it's first run was worse than when I re-ran that print in that same original auditorium (nothing was done to the SDDS system between the reports as they were all tweeked right before the movie opened). Yes, the error rates IMPROVED after running the film some several hundred times.


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-05-2000 10:02 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have not used FilmGuard in a changeover house as of yet...Certainly using projector mounted film cleaners would work without problems.

As far as setting tension goes....that is relatively easy. There should be just enough tension so the film doesn't bounce when the reel is full. One should avoid reels that have a greater than 3:1 ratio of hub to flange though I have found that running 7" hub with 25" flange work fine as house 6000' reels. Also different clutches have different characteristics so one may have different sweet spots. I generally prefer oil soaked felt clutches over dry or leather clutches for mechanicals. Also some of those that increase tension as the weight on the reel increases are really cool.

The niftiest clutch I have worked with lately has been Kinoton's electronic frictions...they use a feedback system on the power to the torque motors to maintain an even tension from beginning to end of reel regardless of reel size (up to the maximum listed for the particular machine you ordered). You only have to tell it which size you are running for start off so it will start the reel spinning with a presumed reel weight...in any event it seems incredably smooth.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

 |  IP: Logged

John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-05-2000 11:32 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You could always just have one cleaner and alternate reels session to session.

But of course, two would be better...

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-2000 05:35 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

Say you are running a 2 reel feature on 6000 footers and you have 2 floating hub reels and two solid hub reels in the booth to work with. Which type of reel would you feed from and which would you takeup on? I hear differing answers from changeover masters on this one and would be interested in your opinion.

Also, large core 6000 foot reels are a bit hard to come by in typical booths. How much film would you personally feel is "the limit" to pack onto one of those for reel to reel operation given the 4 inch hub and why?

Finally, can you please elaborate on "some of those that increase tension as the weight on the reel increases" clutches that are available on the market? Also, to what degree do you "soak" the felt clutches for optimum operation?


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-06-2000 12:47 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad:

Given the above situation, the floaters go on the take ups. In fact, floating hub reels were originally designed for auto catching take up reels (Check the Goldberg patent).

Onto the next question, the typical house reel uses a 5" hub, not 4" which is a shipping reel. Given the 3:1 ratio, a 15" reel is the largest one should run on a conventional mechanical take up though I haven't had any particular problem with runing up to 24" with floating hubs. Be that as it may, it isn't any harder to get large hub reels than 5" hub reels (I sell em both all the time). The proper tool for the job is the larger hub, period.

On the clutch lubrication...you want me to give away my secrets? ;-) The general rule is the stuffer the pad the lighter the oil....I like to soak my clutches in the oil I am using (like a coffee can or something)...always have a spare set at the ready and change as often as needed. For instance, a Kelmar clutch would only need really light oil and probably not even really soaked. A Century clutch (felt) would be a bit heavier oil, say 10W (don't use those crappy leather ones that are glazed on one side), a AAII clutch I tend to use even heavier oil 80W plus.

As to the self adjusting clutches based on weight. Army/Air Force theatres (AAFES)used/uses them exclusively and Kinoton also has and I believe still can offer them when using larger reels. The basic theory is as the reel gets heavier, it weighs down the spindle assy more and it will grip the clutch tighter (kinda like a Potts/Strong MUT) so that a heavier reel turns with more torque.

Steve

 |  IP: Logged

Risto Huovinen
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Viiala, Finland, Europe
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-09-2000 09:24 AM      Profile for Risto Huovinen   Author's Homepage   Email Risto Huovinen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think this fits on the topic, because this IS a FG question as well. Do you know if there are any restrictions of using FG on prints? Is there any film distributors that don't allow you to use FG on their prints? I am convinced the FG is great for prints, but will there be any kind of trouble with distributors when using it? I think in Finland NOBODY uses FG on prints. (at least I don't know). I think here's _many_ projectionists around in Finland that don't have even heard of FG.: 'Film Guard? What's that? Something to eat??' I know there's not a LOGIC reason to ban FG, but anyhow. Answers please.

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-09-2000 09:55 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I kind of liked the idea that someone posted a while ago: have Brad make up a one-page "brochure" kind of thing that you can throw in the shipping container when you send the print back to the distributor. It could say something along the lines of "this print has been treated with FilmGuard (tm) blah blah blah to reduce scratching and dust buildup blah blah blah for more information write to blah blah blah or visit our web site blah blah blah"

This would have the benefit of "spreading the word" about FG and also answering the first question out of the mouth of the next operator who gets a Filmguarded print: "What the hell is that smell?"

I've not yet had the chance to use FG in an actual theatre environment, but I've been very impressed with the results I've gotten at home with the 16mm and 35mm material in my collection. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a theatrical environment, though I might think twice about using it on "one-of-a-kind" ultra-rare prints, although it eventually will evaporate over time, and there doesn't (yet) appear to be any long-term effect on the film.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-09-2000 11:27 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't found anything to be a problem. Most studios are thrilled if you return a print that is playable, regardless of how you kept it that way. Subsequent theaters that play it are also thrilled to get a print that isn't scratched either. Wouldn't you be?

If the studios started a don't use this and don't use that policy, any and all forms of film cleaning would quickly come to a halt for fear of being charged. Consequently, the prints in circulation would rapidly become destroyed and unwatchable in no time from theaters worried about being charged and not performing any sort of preventive maintenance on the prints. It wouldn't make sense. By now there are tens of thousands of prints FilmGuarded that have been returned to depots and no one has been charged. I know many of the prints I have returned have been specifically saved for repertory use, but who knows if they have been destroyed by now.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.