Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Switching power supplies (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Switching power supplies
Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-24-2000 10:19 PM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have noticed that the lamps in our 4000 watt applications are begining to flicker and have striking problems far before reaching their warranty limits.

The power supplies are Strong switchers and will accept either single or three phase power. We wired them in single phase and used the third phase on the breaker to power the exhaust fan on the roof in order to idiot proof the exaust fans.

We're going to pull an additional wire and connect all three phases on Tuesday. Will this solve the problem?

Question #2: Can I share one of the phases with the exhaust fan to maintain the the certainty of the fan running when the lamp house is powered up?

The power supplys already provide plenty of current in the single phase configuration, but I was told that running them this way could increase the potential of AC ripple hitting the lamps.

Even if I had an occasional "loss of cooling" melt down, it would still be cheaper in the long run as opposed to getting about a third of the rated time out of the bulbs.

Russ

 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-25-2000 02:09 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With a switching supply, the 60 Hz AC gets electronically converted to a high frequency AC before being rectified and filtered. Therefore it shouldn't matter whether you are operating it with single or three-phase current.

As for ripple, unlike standard power supplies working at 50/60 Hz there should be practically zero ripple voltage as the high frequency AC, after rectification, is much easier to filter than 50/60 Hz...

Aaron

 |  IP: Logged

Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-27-2000 01:39 AM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I asked because I was told that three phase was better for the supply.

As far as the mis-ignition goes, the lamp ignites, produces very little light, and draws about a third of the recommended current.

If you look at the arc through the filter, it is dancing all over the quartz envelope instead of between the cathode and anode.

Re-striking always fixes the problem, but the audience sees this too.

We are striking the lamp at "start plus seven seconds" and not using the change-over dowsers because they have a nasty habit of closing and staying closed when the power blinks.

We have eleven screens, but five seperate projection booths.

The 2k lamps strike instantly. The problem is isolated to the 4k lamps.

Russ

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-27-2000 03:48 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Russ: sounds like you have some failure of a component in the power supply. Don't know if 3-phase would help. But if you decide to use 3-phase, I would NOT recommend connecting anything else to the 3-phase breaker, especially a heavy (and unbalanced) load like an exhaust fan. Consider using a relay to control the fan on its own circuit, actuated by turning on the lamp power supply.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-27-2000 07:47 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
what make of lamp?

 |  IP: Logged

Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 09-27-2000 10:48 PM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CALL YOUR TECHNICAL SERVICE PEOPLE NOW!!!
This happened in one of my old theatres 2k units the lamp would show the exact same symptoms. we could also smell burning that seemed unrelated we called our service company and they could not find the burning (neither could the electricians) The tech told us it must be excess oil burning off. One day A customer came out and said the picture turned off so I went upstairs and the rectifier was smoking. Bo**on Light And Sound Incorrectly wired the unit when they installed over a year from the incident and the Hot lead was loose and burned up the internal componenets this could be VERY serious.

 |  IP: Logged

George Roher
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Washington DC
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 09-27-2000 11:29 PM      Profile for George Roher   Email George Roher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Those Strong switchers seem to have a lot of problems. We had one explode a couple months ago at one of the theatres I work in. I wasn't on duty at the time but I'm told it was fairly exciting. Actually, two weeks ago I had to cancel a show in another theatre because a switcher went dead on me. Most of the theatres around here that use switchers have had problems with them.

 |  IP: Logged

Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-28-2000 12:35 AM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon,

Lamphouse is Strong Super 80

Lamp is Osram

 |  IP: Logged

Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 09-28-2000 12:47 PM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have also had a lot of problems with Strong switchers. At the AMC I used to work at we would blow one every couple of months. It only occured with the 4-7kW switchers in the 4 big houses. It got so bad we always had 2 extra switchers sitting around so we could change them out quickly. They said it was some problem with the power coming into the building, but I never had a chance to check it out myself.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-28-2000 05:51 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd be willing to bet that the failure rate is actually very low if you take into consideration that there are thousands and thousands of Strong switchers out there. They have bene around along time. I've heard problems of failures and DC lead connectors burnning off the sides of the units but I still have as of yet to have this happen. In the last three years I can only remember one switcher going bad. It had been in service for about 6 years. Strong provided another unit on repair exchange for around 300.00. You couldn't have your tech change all the diodes in an Irem for that amount of $$. If one looked at the failure rate of other rectifiers....Irem, ORC, LP you would probably see parallel lines in the failure department. We have several switchers for our Super Troupers that get knocked around in our rental department and we have yet to experience any trouble with them.
Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-28-2000 07:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do the klamps try to ignite repeatedly or just sit there dead
Check the noload voltage of the rectifier
also check the autostrike board's relay and zenier diode

 |  IP: Logged

John T. Mellor
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Htafield, Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-29-2000 10:13 PM      Profile for John T. Mellor   Email John T. Mellor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We recently had all of the switchers at several locations replaced by strong due to a failure to ignight. They are using DC to ignight on the newer models . we also have had premature darkening of the envelope I havent had a chance to check but I think that they need to check for too much ripple in the DC. you may want to call strog Directly to see if they have any solutions. I ptrefer Knisley rectifiers over most of the others we had two at our drive in and ran 4k lamps at 150 amps and never had a problem the rectifiers are 20 plus years old and never had a new diode we used Osram bulbs and Knisley sreies I lamphouses with glass reflectors

hope it helps
John

 |  IP: Logged

Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-30-2000 06:52 AM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, I'll throw a post on this one and see what happens. You guys all know where I'm coming from anyway.

If there's been an issue with Switchers, it's reliability. Putting that aside for a moment, when they work they work very elegantly, and they really do work the greatest majority of the time. The advantages are, of course, light weight, very high power efficiency and ideal power characteristics for a xenon lamp.

There is virtually NO AC ripple on the output of the Switcher -- <.5%. Darkening of lamps is a contamination issue and won't be affected by ripple, unless it's really, really high, to a point where you couldn't watch a projected image on screen. Excessive ripple will cause the anode to develop bubbles and high spots, and the cathode tip will round off or crack very quickly. One problem you won't have with switchers is ripple.

The Switcher has very low inrush characteristics during the ignition cycle. Inrush is around 150% or less of the nominal current, compared with 250-300% or more from many magnetic (brute force) supplies. That's one feature, along with the low AC ripple, that promotes longer lamp life.

The output of the system is "tailored" to produce an "ideal" power characteristic during ignition to make it more reliable. One challenge in this is the different lamps -- an ORC 2kw acts differently from an Osram. Heck, there are variances in the same lamp designs from the same manufacturers. Lamps age differently and the arc gap varies with age. They have slightly different fill pressures, different mix of thorium and tungsten in the electrodes, etc. As some of these designs and specifications have changed and varied over time, we've tried to cover those changes with modifications in the Switcher.

ALL lamp manufacturers have tested Switchers at various stages -- we've sent them just about everywhere for analysis and have worked closely with Osram and others in many instances.

I know I've encountered many more instances where a Switcher will light a lamp better than a standard supply could. In some testing I've done (tests unrelated to this topic), I've struck and run 2kw lamps at 15A -- the switcher will ignite them and maintain a steady arc even at that low a current setting. This is a special circumstance and not necessarily good for the lamp, but the Switcher will do it more often than not.

Okay -- back to the coffee...

 |  IP: Logged

Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-30-2000 06:56 PM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Pat!

You are correct about lamp life. Our 2k average lamp life jumped off the scale when we converted to switchers. The things paid for themselves.

Single or three phase for 4000 watts?

Russ

 |  IP: Logged

Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-30-2000 07:48 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Russ;
It's my understanding that the 4kw version can run on single-phase input and still power a 4kw lamp. Needs a pretty hefty single-phase breaker, though, because the current draw would have to be something over 25A.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.