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Author Topic: argh! mysterious digital problem...
Gracia L. Babbidge
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 709
From: Bowdoin, Maine
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 03:00 AM      Profile for Gracia L. Babbidge   Author's Homepage   Email Gracia L. Babbidge   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...'Any help here would be hot'...

I'll be the first one to say that I am a projectionist, not a projector technician. However, I do try to deal with problems myself before freaking out and calling a tech. (After all, why bother them for something minor that I can handle on my own?) I'm fairly sure that I will have to call a tech for this one, I just want to see if there is anything else I could have checked and/or done before making that call. My SRD is not working.
The Digital Soundhead is a Cat. No. 700, and the SRD digital film sound processor is a Model DA20.
I'm not sure if the problem is with the reader or with the processor. But on the soundrack where a number (or sometimes an 'F') is displayed while a film is running in SRD, instead there is simply a '-'. Short, flat line.
I've already checked for blown fuses and loose wiring. All was fine.
The bulb in the soundhead is working fine, not burnt out.
All appropriate lenses are clean, and everything ought to be properly aligned (being at least a good 5.5 feet off the floor, directly over a beastly Century JJ2STA projector head, keeps things well out of harm's way as far as getting 'bumped' and misaligned!)

Mind you, I have no test loops, or hardly anything else in the way of equipment for running tests. And too, my knowledge of electronics is minimal.

I appreciate any advice that will get tossed this way.

~Gracia

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In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-11-2000 04:20 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gracia

In these days where everything has an SRD track on it perhaps this one does not.

Is this the same on all prints and trailers or just one title?



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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-11-2000 06:32 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A line like that indicates that there is NO SRD data on that reel. Like John said, it is probably the whole print.

Which print is it?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-11-2000 07:52 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dumb question is the reader cable plugged in at both ends make sure the power is off when testing I have seen them come loose

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 08:03 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gracia --- just look at the print to see if there is a Dolby Digital track. Under a magnifying glass, you should be able to see the Dolby "Double D" logo printed in the center of each good data block between the perfs on the side of the film adjacent to the analog track.

The Dolby Digital, SDDS and analog/DTS time code tracks all have separate light sources on the printer, so one can fail even on "quad" format prints.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 09-11-2000 10:48 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JP makes a good point; We had a print that had a grey shaded area in between the sprocket hole, yet the DD reader was just showing a "-".
Turns out that it was not a digital track- it was just grey shaded squares. Why they would do such a thing I don't know (maybe they just like to watch projectionists squirm!) So look close.

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Neil Di Scala
Film Handler

Posts: 17
From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 11:00 AM      Profile for Neil Di Scala   Email Neil Di Scala   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The cable in the back of the 700 can work itself loose, there is no lock on the plug. Unscrew the back plate and take a look. I have had this happen. When you put the cable clamp back on, wrap something around it for strain relief.

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Gracia L. Babbidge
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 709
From: Bowdoin, Maine
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 01:12 PM      Profile for Gracia L. Babbidge   Author's Homepage   Email Gracia L. Babbidge   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To Gordon and Neil - thanks for the heads up, I'll check that cable.

To all you other wise-guys, yes, the prints that I have run on the machine do have the SRD track! I know to look for Dolby's 'double d' logo in the gray shaded areas, and I can see it just fine without a magnifying glass!
Highlander: Endgame and The Way Of The Gun have both run on that machine. And Endgame was running in digital for a few days before the digital went the way of the dodo!
I may be a lot of things, but I am not silly enough to run a print without an SRD track on my machine with the SRD reader and expect to get digital sound!

~Gracia

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In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.

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Greg Pauley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Huntington, WV, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 01:37 PM      Profile for Greg Pauley   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Pauley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gracia:
You might want to try moving a known working SRD print into the booth and test run the print prior/after hours. This will tell you if the problem is with the print or equipment. You didn't answer the question about if your trailers were reading SRD or not? I would elimate the print as the problem before spending alot of time on the equipment side. Good Luck!


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 02:23 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gracia -- We did not question your abilities, just your eyesight. We "old fogies" need to use a magnifier (or at least our reading glasses) to see the Dolby "double D" and verify the print has Dolby Digital printed. As John Walsh noted, he has seen prints with only a data-less gray printed that gave the "-" indication you got. Oh, to be young again!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 04:01 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The fact that you sometimes get an 'F' (for 'fail') on the DA-20 display means that the Cat 700 is definitely picking up some data and passing it to the DA-20, but that the DA-20 cannot convert it into analogue waveforms, because that data is in some way corrupted. If there were no SR-D data on the print, then you would just get the '-', never an 'F'. The fact that you are getting an 'F' means that data is being sent at least some of the time, which pretty much rules out the connectors or cable. I suppose there's just a small chance of an intermittent break in the connection, but would doubt it.

If you have tried another print which you know to be OK without success, then all I can think of is the following:

1. Exciter bulb on the way out. I know you said it's not blown but the light from halogen lamps gradually deteriorates during their lifetime. Just as you have to keep resetting the gain on an SR analogue (incandescent) exciter over the course of its lifetime to compensate for the reduction in light output, the same problem with digital will show itself as a gradually increasing error rate. Has the error rate gradually been getting worse on that reader over the last few days or weeks? If so try changing the lamp. If it's been in for over a year, then personally I'd change it anyway.

2. Optics (exciter and/or CCD) dirty. I know you said they were clean but there's nothing to lose by trying the following. Take a compressed air spray, pointing the jet laterally across the exciter lens and the CCD (metal tube next to the scanning drum), and give a brief squirt. Do not point the nozzle straight at it as the force of the air pressure could cause damage.

At this point, I'd give up and call an engineer, because unless I'm being really stupid and missing something, the only other possibilities are:

3. Optics and/or CCD have become misaligned. Have you had a platter wrap recently, or has the Cat 700 been knocked for any reason? If so this could have happened. You need to call an engineer to fix this - there's nothing you can do about it yourself.

4. Internal fault within the DA20 - ditto.

Hope this helps.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-11-2000 04:35 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"(or sometimes an 'F') is displayed while a film is running in SRD, instead there is simply a '-'. Short, flat line. "
She does say there "is only a flat line" other films are a number or F" Therefor the connections could be at fault.
I have seen them come loose especially if they didn't fish the cable in flex.
If you are ambitious remove the front cover of the DA20 and look at the display on the two cat 671 boards They display sync If a red LED on either of these boards is lit there is a fault on that board
The manual is online here if you don't have it

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 06:23 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry - didn't read GLB's post carefully enough (just got to the end of another 15hr shift). That has to be a connection fault or something very wrong in the DA-20. For it to be picking up data one minute and nothing the next rules out the bulb or alignment (unless the failure happened just after the Cat 700 got a very serious shock).

Will file the Cat 671 tip - many thanks.

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Marc Jones
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: Elizabethtown, KY
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-11-2000 07:20 PM      Profile for Marc Jones   Email Marc Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recently went through a simular problem,
Majority of the time the DA 20 had a "F" or played for a while then switched out and then an"F".

Replaced the Lamp and now it holds between 3 or 4.
On mine the reflector around the bulb had some dull places I guess due to the heat.
Good luck
Marc Jones

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Neil Di Scala
Film Handler

Posts: 17
From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 09-11-2000 07:35 PM      Profile for Neil Di Scala   Email Neil Di Scala   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some time ago, I had three DA20's that had a power supply cable in the back that would overheat, change the voltage, and the processor would get really stupid. There is a cover over it on the back of the DA20. Also, pull the cards out of the DA20 and push them back in. Do that to all the plugs also. Change the bulb, play around with the light pipe a little bit to see if it got really pushed out of position.

Believe it or not, I had a DA10 that would get hot and work poorly. I put a small fan on it and it worked fine without doing anything else.

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