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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Nitrate on a platter? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Nitrate on a platter?
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-28-2000 03:17 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's something worthy of the next Film-Tech training video download. My Russian neighbour showed me (or rather, translated for me) an article in 'Isvestia' today, which contained a report of a fire which gutted a cinema in Novosibirsk. The report said that the fire took place early in the morning and that one member of staff was seriously ill in hospital after inhaling toxic fumes, but that otherwise no-one was hurt.

It also contained the following information: (i) that the fire started in the projection box, (ii) that the cinema had been showing a special season of Soviet musicals from the 1930s, and (iii) that some very rare prints of these, supplied by the Russian State Film Archive, had been destroyed in the fire.

There was also a photo of the projection box - showing one projector (a Meopta I think) and a five-deck platter beside it.

Were they doing what I think they were doing???!!!

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-28-2000 08:14 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kind of sounds like they were running a bit of nitrate there.

A few years ago, a friend and I started looking for a copy of a 1925 feature called "Conquest of Caanan" that was filmed here in downtown Asheville. It was presumed lost years ago, and the studio, Paramount, was not helpful. In fact, my friend was told by someone on the phone that they were not interested in that old stuff.

Persistance eventually paid off. My friend found that a print existed in Russia. The print they had was nitrate and had russian title cards. After some negotiations, and some city finances, we obtained a perfect new 10 reel print on safety stock. I am astounded at the sharpness of the print, cosidering it is a dupe. I assembled it onto 4 2000' reels. I could not read the Russian, so I went by the numbers at the bottom of each of the title cards. I must have gotten it right, as it was transferred in Atlanta to tape, and the print was returned to Asheville.
The film has been shown on cable TV several times with new english title cards translated from "old" Russian by a friend.

The print sat in City Hall for a couple of years before we got it back. It almost was thrown out during a city renovation project!

It is now here with my collection. I cant tell what the film stock is, but it sure smells good. I have run it on my Holmes once.

It is not a very good movie. It bombed on the first release.

The reason I mention this is because they do have a big collection of nitrate in Russia. I cant believe they would run the musical prints without taking major precautions.

Question: Could the nitrate sliding on the surface of the platter cause a spark that could ignite the film?

We all know about static with polyester bases.

Possibly just being such bad movies that they just burst into flames?


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2000 09:35 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm assuming that the platter model was the Chernobyl MKV............
Mark

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-28-2000 11:21 PM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Were they doing what I think they were doing???!!!

If there was no evidence of magazines, & you're thinking they were running nitrate film on a platter....


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-29-2000 07:30 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak's web site has quite a bit of information on the properties and dangers of nitrate film:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage3.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/about/environment/nitrate.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-29-2000 10:39 AM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wouldn't be too suprised if they were doing what you think. Pretty scary stuff if you ask me. Man am I glad a don't work in a booth that requires a 'dead man door.'

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-29-2000 02:28 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know that this topic doesn't have the flames coming out of the folder as it doesn't have at least 50 posts...but I really think it deserves the flames.

Oh those Russians aren't having too good a time of late, are they?

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-04-2000 05:14 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was a follow-up article in Friday's Isvestia, again kindly translated by my neighbour. They think the fire was caused by a Diesel generator malfunctioning and igniting 3 250-litre drums of fuel stored in the same plant room (:eek . The heat from this ignited 1968-vintage upholstery and carpets... not the sort of climate they're used to in Siberia, I would have thought!

Anyway, it would seem that the platter full of nitrate was me being paranoid.

I wonder if it could possibly happen, though... distributor wants to re-release classic film and buys rights, exchange/depot says "oh yes, we've got a print of that which has been sitting around for ages, hardly used at all", no-one involved in any of this knows anything about nitrate, film is delivered to multiplex and made up by inexperienced trainee...

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-04-2000 07:59 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The thing that surprises me is that the Russian State Film Archive actually let a rare / one of a kind print of ANYTHING out of their sight!

I think it'd be like pulling teeth from a grizly bear to get the American Film Institute or the Library of Congress to let a film like that out of their sight!

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David Kilderry
Master Film Handler

Posts: 355
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-09-2000 03:59 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Running nitrate on a platter is like setting a longer fuse to a bigger bomb!

I'm still amazed at what one foot of nitrate will do - burn like a gas jet. Just think what 12,000ft on a platter would do! What were they thinking - or more precisely, were they thinking at all!

Never run nitrate (at home or theatre) unless you have spool boxes, fire traps, projector door and fire extinguishers close by. Most nitrate is full of nicks and often in poor condition (its all at least 48 years old) so be careful!

I still argue that it is one of the most stable film stocks though. I have nitrate from pre 1920 still in perfect condition. Can anyone prove that acetate or polyester lasts longer - produce the goods!

David

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-09-2000 08:28 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never had the privilege (?) of handling nitrate film but since one of my hobbies is magic, I have played around with flash cotton. (Isn't it basically the same substance as nitrate film, just in a less refined form?)

If it's anything like flash cotton, WOAH!!!! If a platter full of nitrate ever went up, I bet it'd be like the Fourth of July!!!!!


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-09-2000 09:49 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have the leader and tail of a nitrate trailer--maybe a total of 3 feet--at home, and this is all the nitrate that I ever want to have in my posession. The film itself was in good condition, made in 1950, not terribly shrunken. For amusement value, I burned a couple of frames once; it took longer than expected to ignite, but once it caught, it went up instantaneously.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-09-2000 12:29 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The British Navy made an instructional film called 'This Film is Dangerous' in the 1940s, for training sailors in the handling of nitrate stock (it was used on ships for surveillance filming etc. during the war).

One scene in the film shows a 1,000ft roll being set on fire. It's like a car petrol tank going up - even the sailor who lit the end (he'd unrolled about 20 feet of it laid out flat, which he then used as a 'fuse' to light) had to take several steps back - presumably because of the force of the heat.

In this country it's illegal to have nitrate on any premises to which the public are admitted without a special licence from the local authority. To my knowledge, the National Film Theatre and the Imperial War Museum (both in London) are the only cinemas which have one.

So even if you do have fire traps, spool boxes, liquid cooled gates and fireproof, automatically lowered porthole covers, you still can't show nitrate unless the government lets you.

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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-09-2000 12:47 PM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Simelar appöies to Germany. By law owning, handling, storaging and screening of nitrate films requires a special permit. Theatres to show nitrate must have all the safety and building codes fullfilled, normally not even federal archives's theatre has this, as they use Kinotone equipment.
The projectionist maust have a special "A" permit...
... and also specified is: SAFETY stock must be marked every fourth perf hole on the operator's side with a tiny punched dot, "S" or a printed black dot to give an easy means of discrimination of Nitrate stock to film - handlers. This still applies, so Digital - Dolby occupies an illegal spot on film. ...
Theoreticly anybody handling nitrate (or any film with the above mentioned safety marks)without permission (collectors!) is threatened by 2 years of imprisonment. ???!!

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-10-2000 05:11 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That would explain why some prints on Agfa stock I've handled have the 'S' mark every four perfs...

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