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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Screen size vs. wattage (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Screen size vs. wattage
Dennis Atkinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 129
From: Birch Run Michigan
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 08-18-2000 09:51 PM      Profile for Dennis Atkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Atkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is the standard and the equation to figure out the proper lamp size for a screen?
Before a bulb is bought, there must be a way to get a ballpark number.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-19-2000 12:30 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has been talked about in previous posts, but generally, take the height of the screen, square it, then multipy by 12. That gives suggested wattage.

10 foot high screen

(10 x 10) x 12 = 1200 watts.

If the lens focal you are using is about 60mm or less, you need even more.

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-19-2000 06:59 AM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've found the (height x height x 12) formula to be a good starting point at times, but there are other considerations. Curved gain screens have different lighting requirements than matte surfaces. Top/Bottom masking situations really skew the Flat/Scope balance (which isn't really balanced in the first place). Focal length and quality of the projection lenses play a big part, and certainly efficiency of the xenon systems have to be figured in.
Sadly, good old economics comes into play as well. How many times do we see a complex with under- (and over-) lit screens so one size xenon lamp can be stocked in the building?
There are other times when I feel compromises are made the wrong way. Designers seem to want the entire front wall filled with screen, despite problems with audience viewing angles, too large-appearing image size, etc. Too often the xenon system is "pushed" to light a screen that really doesn't need that extra foot or two of height or width, so picture quality is unnecessarily compromised. Overlooked is the fact that a better appearing image, both in brightness and in relative size, can be obtained with a slightly smaller screen and not something that's wall-to-wall.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 05:51 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another "rule of thumb" is 5 watts per square foot of "scope" image area for a matte white (gain=1) screen. Using a gain screen can give more efficiency, but the screen needs to be curved to properly distribute the light throughout the auditorium.

Note that by Pat's formula, the largest 35mm screen that can be adequately lit with even a huge 7000 watt lamp is 24 feet high. Theatres installing 30 x 72 foot screens will have dim pictures or burned film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 08:09 AM      Profile for Barry Floyd   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Floyd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Using that formula... a 40 ft. high drive-in screen would require almost 20kw ??

Most of the drive-ins in Tennessee I've visited run 4kw max. Does the drive-in world require a totally diiferent set of specs?

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-21-2000 10:43 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Does the drive-in world require a totally diiferent set of specs?"

No. Drive ins usually just run with low light. A 40ft high screen would be about 95ft wide; that's pretty big!

Some drive in projectors have "fast pull-down" intermittents (allows the shutter to stay open longer) to get more light. But nothing is going to light that screen. 35mm film just can't take that kind of light (heat.)

I tried to find when in the past we talked about this at length, but the search feature isn't working.

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Rory Burke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Burbank, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 12:16 PM      Profile for Rory Burke   Email Rory Burke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are the above equations set to calculate 16ft/L +/- 2ft/L??? I am assuming they are. I am gonna take those equations and compare them to my theaters and see which one is the closest. Anyone else have any others?

Rory

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 12:25 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 12 "Screen Luminance for Drive-In Theaters" notes that "in an ideal situation...the screen luminance and distribution shall be that specified in ANSI/SMPTE 196M, 16 fL +/- 2 fL (55 cd/m2 +/- 7 cd/m2). But "When maximum compromise must be made...the luminance at the center of the screen, measured from any car position, shall in no case be less than 4.5 fL (15 cd/m2)." RP 12 also allows more non-uniformity on an outdoor screen than for an indoor theatre.

In reality, any screen larger than about 25 x 60 feet will be difficult to light to the SMPTE aim of 16 fL without risk of heat damage to 35mm film. A 70mm print allows spreading the energy of the lamp over a much larger area of film, so huge screens are much easier to light properly with 70mm formats. If you have a 30 or 35 foot high screen, the only way to light it properly is with a 70mm print.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 12:28 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John found his SMPTE reference before I did. Let's face it, outdoor screens are a bear to light and if we made anything over 4fL back in the old days (when there were drive-ins), we were pretty happy about it.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 12:52 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rory said: "Are the above equations set to calculate 16ft/L +/- 2ft/L??? I am assuming they are. I am gonna take those equations and compare them to my theaters and see which one is the closest."

The "equations" presented are really only "rules of thumb". As Pat Moore mentioned, there are many factors that affect the "efficiency" of converting watts to light on the screen. These include shutter efficiency, lens f/stop, lamphouse f/stop and match/alignment to the projector optics, port glass transmission, screen gain and curvature, cleanliness of the optics, etc., etc.

As Pat notes, many theatres have screens that use poorly chosen lamp sizes. For example, to reduce lamp inventory, some theatres routinely use only one or two lamp sizes for screens ranging from 10 x 24 feet(which only needs about 1200 watts) to 15 x 36 feet(which needs about 3000 watts) to 20 X 48 feet (which needs about 5000 watts) to 25 x 60 feet (which needs about 7000 watts). Or they try to economize by using a 2000 watt lamp for screens much larger than the 13 x 31 foot size that can be comfortably lit with 2000 watts.

The only sure way to know if you are meeting the SMPTE standard is to regularly MEASURE the screen luminance using a calibrated screen luminance meter. Here are several articles that I wrote on the subject:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/spring98/pointers.shtml http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/march2000/pytlak.shtml http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/june2000/pytlak.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 01:01 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pat Moore said: "John found his SMPTE reference before I did."

No, I actually have all the SMPTE Standards, Recommended Practices, and Engineering Guidelines committed to memory!

Actually, committed to my laptop's memory: I purchased the CD-ROM set from SMPTE that has Adobe Acrobat .pdf files of ALL current SMPTE standards. Here is the link:
http://www.smpte.org/stds/index.html

For as little as $250.00, you can be as expert (and fast) as me!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 02:24 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

In Italy ARCADIA has the biggest european screen: 98 feet lenght. I've seen some films on that screen but It seems that there were no problem in luminance.
Pls note that ARCADIA is known in Italy as one of the best theater in the world.
The auditorium is THX certified, of course.
Just to say that it seem strange to me...

Bye
Antonio


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-21-2000 03:08 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The search is working, but only if you select one specific forum. There is a bug when you do a search of every forum at once that I have not had the time to track down yet.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 03:10 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio: If they are really getting 16 footlamberts on a 98-foot wide screen, it would be an engineering breakthrough! I could imagine a 70mm print with a very large lamp (e.g., 10,000 watts) delivering that kind of light, but not with a 35mm print. Please find out what equipment they have, and what the light measurement actually is. I suspect that the light level is actually below standard if you measure it.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 03:51 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm with you, John. I want to see that 98ft screen with 16fL of illumination, and the equipment doing it.

John, seems like I remember some research done not all that long ago that determined (basically) the bigger the image, the less illumination was required to make the image effective. There was a train of thought saying that very large (appearing) images have so much visual information that it's overwhelming to the brain if it's illuminated at "normal" standards.

Are you aware of anything like this?

I do know when I view a screen from close up (large appearing image) compared to farther away, the close up image sure LOOKS brighter.

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