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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » New TAP Division Suggested For Labs!! (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: New TAP Division Suggested For Labs!!
Greg Pauley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Huntington, WV, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-08-2000 02:40 PM      Profile for Greg Pauley   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Pauley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why in the world are the labs still using glue splices and why are they making the splices in the middle of the frame. I saw "Space Cowboy" opening night and there were 3 terrible looking lab splices that appeared on the screen. Yeah, the theatre should have taken out these splices, but does no one at the lab or studio care about quality? If a theatre would have blundered these splices, the people at TAP would have been on the phone to the manager. I have a suggestion, start a new division of TAP and call it LAP "Laboratory Alignment Program." If they find a problem with the print (shouldn't take long for this to happen) they would call the manager of the lab or call the head of the studio and explain that they should repair the problem ASAP. They might suggest having someone from the exhibitor side of the industry to consult on the proper splicing method and to volunteer to stay late and watch the film prior to shipping. Is it just me or has everyone else had a lot of problems with bad prints over the last year? Just had to order a new 4th reel of "Coyote Ugly" because the picture and sound disappeared for about 10 sec at the end of the reel. I can't remember which preview it was, but it was attached to Space Cowboy and had those "Hum Bar" lines rolling down top to bottom just like the ones that appear in the Patriot. When you see the same problem on two different prints, it tells you something is not right with the labs. Does anybody at the labs take a random look at the prints or are they just too rushed to get them out? I don't normally "bitch" on this forum, but just started my vacation and already received 2 emails and 1 phone call from the office. I'm heading to Hartford CT, any must see theatres in that area?


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-08-2000 02:58 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AFAIK, the Theatre Alignment Program DOES work closely with labs to check outgoing print quality on features that contract for TAP, but they can't look and listen "real time" to every one of the tens of thousands of reels that make up a major feature release. Random bad reels will happen, and the labs quickly replace them. Problems that affect all the prints (e.g., an unsteady or scratched printing negative, a sound sync problem among tracks) are very critical, and need to be reported as soon as they are found.

Ultrasonic lab splices are unfortunately an economic "fact of life". Splices that are unreliable, discolored, or not on the frameline should be properly remade during make-up. Having the labs or a third party remaking splices would drive up print costs significantly, and add an extra handling stage. Inspection projection itself can sometimes cause damage.

BTW, I've heard that return rates for defective reels are well under 1% (one percent) at most labs. Small comfort when you find a problem reel late Thursday night, before a busy weekend.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-08-2000 04:49 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Since we're dredging up this topic again, I must chime in and state the obvious again...this is TES's fault for not allowing the prints to be received at the theaters on Wednesdays!!! Sure the splices are an economic necessity, but with all of the print problems out there in the field, we could solve virtually ALL of them if TES would just send the prints out 2 days prior. That would give plenty of time to replace the reels.

Oh wait, that would require actual thought and concern. Never mind.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-08-2000 07:22 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought that was the idea behind TAP. They "followed" the techinal aspects of the film from, say, the finished negative, printing and to the theaters.

I do think lab spliced are not a TAP - controlled item. As JP said, we'll just have to learn to live with them.

I know of a lot of companies (making all kinds of products) that would be damn happy if their product only had a 1% fall-out rate.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 05:43 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad:

I agree that many minor print problems could be better addressed by projectionists if they received prints in time to do a thorough inspection, repair lab splices, etc. And if a reel was defective, get a replacement in plenty of time for the opening.

Both the SMPTE P3 Projection Technology Committee and the Inter-Society Committee for the Enhancement of Theatrical Presentation will be meeting at ShowEast in Orlando this October. I will bring up the advantages of shipping the prints so they arrive at theatres a few days (not hours) in advance of the first show, and see if anything can be done, especially by the Inter-Society, which is supported by NATO and the Distributors.

There may be issues that we are not aware of that mandate "just in time" shipping by the exchanges, including piracy control, air freight schedules, union work agreements, etc. But I think it's worth trying.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 07:18 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I said: "BTW, I've heard that return rates for defective reels are well under 1% (one percent) at most labs."

Just as a "reality check", what percentage of reels have Film-Tech participants required immediate replacements for, due to lab or stock problems? Look over your print logs for the last few months, and calculate how many NEW reels you've received, and how many of them needed to be immediately replaced. Is it indeed less than 1 in 100?

Please do NOT include damage from previous showings (used prints), or minor problems like having to remake lab splices. We're only counting NEW reels that have to be replaced, which is what the labs and distributors keep track of.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-09-2000 08:43 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
If you look at a film like the "Perfect Storm" and how bad it looked one might actually be inclined think that the return rate SHOULD be closer to 100% .
The key to better lab quality is not a TAP sort of thing but a bit slower lab output and production rate. Also, since we now all live in an age of "the bottom line", that always takes precedence over any quality at all........be it film or digital.
Mark

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 09:16 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark:

A quick search of all the postings on this site did not find any major print problems being reported for "Perfect Storm", so your report is the first. What specific issues do you attribute to the lab? Many times, with an effects-laden picture (especially CGI), it's difficult to identify the source of any image quality problem, since there are so many elements and so many labs/effects houses involved.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-09-2000 11:04 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
Read Scott Norwoods DLP review of the Perfect Storm. In there he comments on how the actual release prints look overall poor, and are not color timed very well and that this made them look even worse in Digital. This would certainly constitute a 100% reject rate. The prints here in SLC look pretty awful overall. With the exception of the few wet gates that I assume were made for the big Hollywood and New York theaters this may bring it down to 99% assuming those actually looked good.
Mark


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Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 11:09 AM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On average I receive 4 prints each week. Let's say that an average movie is 5 reels. I order on average 2 reels per week. That's 2 reels in every 20, 1 in 10. Not a very good ratio. Last week (Opening of Space Cowboys, Hollow Man and Coyote Ugly) I had 6 prints totaling 38 reels and I had to order 5 new ones.

I think that the return rates are so low because many theatres don't even screen prints. Others just don't care enough to get replacements. Those of us who do request replacements are making up the percentage for the entire country, which is why it is so low.


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-09-2000 11:22 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave,
I absolutely agree with you that most do not screen the prints and in reality most do not care......including the labs. It is after all, just the bottom line that matters.
Mark

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 12:52 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark:

Here is what Scott Norwood said regarding "Perfect Storm":

"the garden-variety 35mm release print that I saw of this film was not very good.
The film was shot in super-35, and the release prints were grainy and had timing problems." He goes on to say that the color consistency and tone scale in the DLP presentation was even worse.

First, let me clarify that cinematographer John Seale "opted to shoot anamorphic rather than Super 35 because (he) felt the quality improvement was a significant advantage for this film." (American Cinematographer, July 2000, page 58). Filmed effects were shot on 8-perf VistaVision. Lucasfilm's Industrial Light and Magic(ILM)did most of the effects and CGI. So the film has good credentials.

As you know, the scene-to-scene timing is approved at the answer print stage, so the "timing problems" reflected the artistic decision of the timer, cinematographer and director. We may argue with the color decisions, but it was theirs' to make. A release print lab can be held responsible for reel-to-reel color variations, but not the scene-to-scene color timing from an approved answer print.

Scott's comment about "grainy" may be explained by the American Cinematographer article: "To help a bit with emulsion speed, Seale force-processed the SFX 200 one stop, rating it 320 ISO." Generally, this enhances the grain structure of the film. Again, this was an artistic decision, and one driven by the need to light huge sets to get the desired T4.5 lens opening.

So, in this case, the "look" of the film was likely what was approved, and is not a "lab problem".

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 01:17 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave Cutler said: "Last week (Opening of Space Cowboys, Hollow Man and Coyote Ugly) I had 6 prints totaling 38 reels and I had to order 5 new ones."

What were the specific lab problems that caused you to request 5 replacement reels? At least two labs are involved with those three pictures.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-09-2000 01:27 PM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Each print of 'Space Cowboys' had one reel that had black splotching on the soundtrack side of the print.

One of the prints of 'Hollow Man' had medium sizeds white dots running down the right side of the screen for 3 reels. Have never seen this before.

Had the same white spots with a print of 'Coyote Ugly' but since it only lasted about 5 seconds I decided not to replace it. I probably should have I know but I didn't.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-09-2000 01:42 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
I am aware of the grainy thing. It can come through in anamorphic or Super 35 for that matter and is easily controled for the desired effect. This effect can also be done in later stages if desired.
I doubt that the DP, and Director would have approved the way the average release print of this film looked. I've been through many color timming sessions with quite a number of DP's while on location dailies. Answer prints ALWAYS look far better than the run of the mill relesae print. While I'm certain they made accurate timming desisions on an answer print of Secret Storm the end result, through the murk of the average release print was pretty shotty even if it was an artistic desision, which I doubt.
John, Please do not be offended by my constant ranting about poor lab quality, but unfortunately its way too common these days.Lets not ignore the average poor quality of prints that most labs kick out these days. It would be in everyone's interest if Kodak undertook to develop new printing/processing technology that would allow the the average lab to generate prints at high speed and maintain quality. I can't believe that a computer could not be built that could look at the finished prints as they are wound on to shipping cores. This could in reality catch a large portion of bad product that gets out. I afraid that you'd be very surprised at how many defective rolls are sent out to theaters. Much moer than 1%. If we can go to the moon and back it shouldn't be too difficult to make decent prints to show on theater screens. Lets not let the greed of the lab owners prevail here. If we do then Digital is just around the corner for all of us.
Mark


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