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Author Topic: Question on terminology
Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 07-13-2000 02:39 PM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alright, not to sound like an idiot or anything but what exactly are A-chain and B-chain? I have heard them refered to, but have never been told what they are. I check Dolby Level and SPL with Pink noise periodically, but what else should I be checking in the sound system? I have only been doing projection work for just over 5 years so I am pretty new, and have had to 'formal' training. Just the 'on the fly' kind. Is there any publication that has all the terminology difined?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-13-2000 03:34 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The A chain is the solor cell slit lens excitor (reverse scan LED and reader) its focus azimouth and lateral alignment or the mag head and the preamp slit loss and gain or for mag gap compensation and eq and gain
The B chain is the House Equalizers,Fader,Amplifiers, Speakers and room accoustics

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 04:42 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Read the Dolby manual. There's a lot in there. If you can find a CP-50 or CP-200 manual, that's even better, because things were explained to a greater degree. In fact, read everything you can get your hands on. You'd be surprised how much knowledge is in the manuals.

The A-chain is defined as everything in the sound system up to the fader. B-chain, everything after.

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Better Projection Pays!


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-13-2000 05:52 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The A-chain includes the fader? Somehow, I'd been thinking that A-chain covers only the exciter lamp to the preamp and that the B-chain was everything after (fader, EQ, amps, etc.).

And where does the NR and matrix stage fit into this? Now I'm confused.

Hmm...gotta go re-read that Dolby manual.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-13-2000 08:35 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The eq and fader tim are part of the b chain
dolby defined the matrix for years as the divison unitl you start playing with mag in a cp200 and then it gets a bit grey

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 09:27 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let me check my manual here... {open mouth, insert foot}

Boy, I sure look like an ass on that one (moreso than usual)! Sorry everybody! For some reason, I was thinking the VCA's were ahead of the EQ cards. And I have that part about 'up to the fader' being the transistion, emblazoned in my memory somehow. I swear I remember reading that a long time ago.

Maybe I'm hallucinating in my old age, and beginning to believe things that never happened :O

I'll go for the safe response next time:
"I don't know."

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Better Projection Pays!


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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 10:36 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always beleived if that ALL signals go through it (regarless of the source - non/sync, digital,mag or optical), it is a part of the B-chain.

This would then make the fader part of the B-chain.

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Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-13-2000 10:46 PM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Tim! Don't be so hard on yourself! You DID read it!

Remember Dolby Stereo in its earliest form? Your cables came out of the CP-50 into a stack of four faders (Radio Shack potentiometers) and then on to the amps.

I think the 55 was the first to incorporate the VCAs, but I'm not sure.

Russ

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Russ Kress
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 202
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-13-2000 10:49 PM      Profile for Russ Kress   Author's Homepage   Email Russ Kress   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oops! The fader is to "the right" of the EQ cards either way...

...sorry, it's late here!

Russ

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 11:14 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The entire projector sound system (from optical solar cell to the loudspeakers) is divided into two sections; A-chain and B-chain. The A-chain starts at the solar cell and ends at the input of the 2:4 matrix. The B-chain starts at the output of the matrix and ends at the loudspeakers. (I thought it was at the output card, but Gordon knows more than I!)

Each section has it's own setup procedures. Generally, you have to set each of them to a specified volume level and equalization. (Equalization is a fancy name for setting the "bass" and "treble" controls for a pre-specified tone.) The A-chain uses Dolby tone/pink noise test film with an oscilloscope to set the solar cell and preamp. The B-chain uses a special card that plugs in and generates the pink noise that is heard in the auditorium. Calibrated microphone(s) feed the pink noise into a real-time analyzer (RTA.) The technician observes the display on the RTA, and adjusts the "bass" and "treble" controls (only there are 27 controls) for a pre-specified tone. (If I remember, pink noise is rapidly and randomly-generated tones, ie; 1k, 1.2k, etc. who's amplitude decreases at a set rate as the generated frequency increases. White noise is the same, except the amplitude stays at a constant level.) This makes every auditorium sound the same.

Why divide the system in to two halfs? There was probably no difficult technical reason. They could have designed the processor such that you ran Dolby tone/pink noise test film and adjusted everything with that. But, dividing the system makes sense for practical reasons.

EQ'ing the B-chain can take a long time (I used to allow at least a half-hour.) The test film would probably break, especially in the acetate days.
Also, EQ'ing the B-chain requires turning on/off each channel. Dolby probably did not want to pay to put on every unit the extra signal switching circuits, pink noise generator and operator controls that would be needed to do this, especially for a infrequent procedure. Requiring a seperate pink noise generator card (Cat. 85 or eqv.) means only buying those circuits once, and you can also add troubleshooting options (+ pink noise or -pink noise.)

Lastly, if you run magnetic-striped film, (or any other audio input) that's an A-chain by itself. You can just set it up, without disturbing anything else. It works the other way, too; if a speaker blows out, after you replace it, you can (re)set the B-chain without messing with the A-chain.

Sorry if I said stuff you already know.... I typed too much again..... If I goofed, anyone, please jump in!

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 03:16 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim said>>Let me check my manual here... {open mouth, insert foot}<<

Blame that damn hot sun in Florida...that'll do it. (You might need these, Tim... )


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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 08:30 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let's see... 'get these on...

Wow, THANKS!

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Better Projection Pays!


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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 11:01 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The original CP-100 had VCA's and the CP-50 could be had with the Cat. No. 117 output card which had VCA's or the Cat. No. 111 which did not and required the user to furnish a 4 gang potentiometer as a house fader. The lack of a fader built into the CP-50 was in a very real sense what got Component Engineering into the theatre equipment business. Our first serious monitor amplifiers had in them a house fader (either a single for the VCA's or a 4 gang pot) to compensate for Dolby's omission.

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Scott Morrison
Film Handler

Posts: 9
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 02:58 PM      Profile for Scott Morrison   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Morrison   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the cp200 manual is very poorly written for a novice. The CP65 Manual is the best explanation of A-Chain and B-Chain set up I've seen.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 11:25 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's true that the CP200 manual is not too good. Actually, it's not that it's written poorly, it just looks like it was never finished. In my copy, there's a page that is supposed to have a picture, but instead there's a hand-written note that says something like; "Put picture of Cat.xx here..." Although it was witten in the late 1970's, I feel it was enough of a money-maker to justify the expence to finish it.

Fortunately, it does have one thing CP65, 500, and 650 manuals do not have, and that's a complete set of schematics.

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