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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Speaking of Failsafes (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Speaking of Failsafes
Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-04-2000 10:04 PM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At Cinemark, we are using FM-35 failsafes.

Tonight, Patriot in our big house continued to payout on the floor for about 10 minutes before the UB for that side noticed it and stopped the show. We did not get a chance to look at the indicator led's for the failsafe to see what it was seeing at that time.

It was interesting to see the film continue to spew onto the floor, running through the failsafe like nothing had happened.

I think what happened though was the takeup arm was wavering back and forth like the LED was unstable (Christie AW-3's) and it eventually went all the way back and stopped.

Paul.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-04-2000 10:23 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen FM-35s do that once or twice. Usually the film looses take-up tension but the film is still in the "groove".

Make sure the film wraps at least 1/2 way around the black roller. If you lose tension, it'll "bubble up". (Set lower magazine roller back as far as possible.)

Second thought... Are you sure the FS wasn't bypassed? Some of our guys would do that when the FS sensor acted up. Instead of cleaning it, they'd bypass and not tell anybody. If you bypass and problem happens, the proj. won't shut off.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-04-2000 11:53 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I found on the Simplex XLs and FM35s at the Cinemark Hollywood if the cue detectors were positioned (as that fine chief installation tech did) in a certain position, they would NOT sense the difference in film running through to a takeup platter vs. film running onto the floor. A simple repositioning forward or backward completely solved the problem.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-05-2000 09:14 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You are all on the right track, particularly Brad. What sometimes happens is that when the take up stops for whatever reason, the film will continue to feed straight down past the cue detector module and onto the floor while a non-moving loop of film hangs over the black roller. The solution we would love to have people use would be to incorporate the motion sensing into their automations. (This has also saved more than a few projectors from stripping gears.) The trouble is, most automations do not know what to do with this information, and getting them to do so usually takes some sort of kluge with relays and timers etc. Our TA-10, of course, does look at that information.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-05-2000 11:39 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Motion detecting failsafes are not new
I still find one of the most reliable was the one supplied by Esoldomatic with the cinemation. It was a roller that was filled with roller bearings that acted like a centrifugal switch they were usually very reliable

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-05-2000 12:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to clarify, since there are two "failsafe" threads going:

There are two types of "failsafes", and BOTH should be used in automated platter situations:

1. A film break / run out detector, often combined with a cue detector. These are usually located just as the film exits the analog soundhead. The film runs past a motion detector (like the Component Engineering FM-35) or microswitch roller (e.g., Kelmar), which detects when the film stops moving or has broken. This type of detector is useful to shut things down after the film has run out, if the film is not being properly taken up, or if a film/splice breaks upstream. They help avert the disasters of a broken splice in the projector causing a film pile-up in the projector, or running a feature onto the floor if the takeup fails.

2. A tension-sensing failsafe. If the film jams in the platter, or if the film fails to feed properly, this device senses a buildup in tension and shuts down the projector before the film can damage anything. In their simplest form (e.g. AVASK unit), they are simply a spring-loaded roller that trips a microswitch when tension builds. Other units use a film carriage (often on the platter column) that is pulled up by excess tension, tripping a microswitch or sensor. Tension sensing failsafes that use a carriage usually allow enough slack to have the projector coast to a stop without damaging anything. Tension-sensing failsafes are essential equipment when using polyester film, because if the film fails to feed properly from the platter, the film will usually NOT break, but the tension buildup will stretch the film and often WILL break something else.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Francis Casey
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: Saint John, NB, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 07-05-2000 08:18 PM      Profile for Francis Casey   Email Francis Casey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon
I remember the Esoldomatic units, we had many of them in our circuit years ago and they were very realiable ; except when the projector leaked oil and they got gummed up , then i had to clean them out .Ocasionally i would loose a pin or two when reassembling them , very frustrating at times .
We still have a couple of Cinemations in operation to this day .
Francis
Francis

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-06-2000 05:02 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have an old Christie 35/70 failsafe which has two pair of wires. One is for a microswitch connected to the roller arms that ride the film, and the other pair is stuffed into a separate roller, one wire on each side. Is this similar to the Esoldomatic design?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-06-2000 05:06 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No the essoldomatic is a single aluminum roller that the film just wrapped around and when it was turning at the correct speed it worked
The cue sensing was originally a blue cruzette prox and latter we converted most to micro switch or honeywell proxes

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Kevin Crawford
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 207
From: Sacramento, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-07-2000 01:35 PM      Profile for Kevin Crawford   Email Kevin Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I had a similar problem with the FM 35. I called Component, the guy I talked to D. Olson, said that the thing was aligned too well. I needed to make sure that it would unthread itself. Or I could put a piece of cardboard under the failsafe, so that as it came out of the failsafe, should the platter stop, it would pile off to the side and unthread the failsafe. I ended up moving the entire failsafe to the extreme left. This seemed to solve that problem.

Good luck.

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Joseph Pandolfi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Milford, CT.
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-07-2000 05:59 PM      Profile for Joseph Pandolfi   Email Joseph Pandolfi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have Christie "dual" failsafes in our setup, which I believe our head projectionist thought of the idea and Christie followed up with a product. This is a setup of roller sensors that ride on each side of the film as it exits the bottom sproket. This would elimate what would be a disaster if the film would tear down the middie and one side of the film would wind up on the platter and the other side would pile up on the floor.


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Ethan Harper
E-dawggg!!!

Posts: 325
From: Plano, TX, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-09-2000 02:02 PM      Profile for Ethan Harper   Email Ethan Harper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I too have used the FM 35's. I have experienced some wierd problems with those. I can remember a couple of times where it would shut off the projector but the film was still threaded through as if there was no problem. But, if we switched it out with aother projecotrs failsafe then it would be perfect. Then again i would alos like to believe that the old booth where i used to work at was haunted. Like this one time where a projector that was shut down powered itself up and shut down again. (trrue stroy i have witnesses). anyways that is beside the point. I have seen a couple where a splice would cause the film to jump off the sensors.

The failsafes i am using now are a little bit different then what i have seen described. I use laserbarcode automation, so i have these old failsafes that came with it. The film runs on two bearings that hold these two flag looking things down. On the other side of the flags there is a barcode so when ever the film breaks, the flags swings upward and the barcode scanner reads the cue and shuts down the projector and sends off this most annoying chime.

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--"That's my story and i'm sticking to it!"--

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-09-2000 03:36 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ethan,

That's Strong SPA-5 automation with upgraded failsafes (courtesy of UA). You've got the original "A" version of them which can only handle 4 cues, but does scan each bar code 5 times. The later versions which could read up to 99 bar code cues only scanned each cue one time, so hope it doesn't miss! This was installed into UA theaters courtesy of Gary Stanley's design, built by Kelmar. Later this was replaced with a visible light and at that point it was an incredibly efficient and reliable system. Basically the cues tell the automation what to do, not the other way around. My only beef was those HUGE cues which left something to be desired on the screen as they passed through.

Here was my solution:

Basically I just modified the mounting bracket and had them set to scan the "S" edge of the SDDS track. It worked flawlessly and did not even shift the picture slightly as the cues passed.

Tip: to anyone using the older "cream colored" scanner boxes, if you get "NT Audio Visual" blue mylar framing leader (extremely common), you can put your head up against the scanner and look at the film with your hand behind it and clearly see the "invisible" led light to check alignment without that horribly expensive viewer. (Note: you MUST put your hand behind the film where you will be looking.)



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Kevin Crawford
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 207
From: Sacramento, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 07-09-2000 08:12 PM      Profile for Kevin Crawford   Email Kevin Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
UA is responsible for those damn bar codes. It figures.

Those things are a pain in the ass to get off of the film. The glue really sticks well.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-10-2000 12:11 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Good UA projectionists lay a piece of splicing tape on the film and place the barcode on TOP of the tape.

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