Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Patriot looks grainy (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Patriot looks grainy
Harry Robinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 155
From: Franklin Tennessee
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-29-2000 08:45 AM      Profile for Harry Robinson   Email Harry Robinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, my wife and I went to the multiplex to see the new "Mel" movie last night. This isn't a review.
For the third time recently I have noticed an excessive amount of grain on the screen. Green mile looked soft all the way through, and The Patriot would drift from crisp to grainy depend on how bright the lighting was in the scene. Some of the landscape shots looked really listless.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong:
Could it be that they are not throwing enough light on the screen? Both of these films were in the same auditorium at the Regal Green Hills Multiplex in Nashville.
I saw Fantasia 2000 in a THX room at the new Carmike and it poppped off the screen. Just makes me wonder...

 |  IP: Logged

Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-29-2000 09:13 AM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not seeing the same thing you saw on screen, of course, it's hard to tell. If you're actually seeing film grain I would say there's at least adequate light on screen. How close to the screen were you? I imagine it was in a larger house. I believe these are FLAT films, right? Can't remember, but that would contribute to an image that's not as good as it should be. I'm in one of those "I hate flat films" moods this week...


 |  IP: Logged

Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-29-2000 10:02 AM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually "Patriot" is scope, and I think "The Green Mile" was too, hard to remember them all. Anyway, I know what you are talk about, it has something to do with how the movie was filmed. There most likely isn't anything wrong with what the theatre is doing. Especially if it's only part of the movie, if it was the entire movie well then it could be a light problem.


------------------
Dave Cutler

"Do or do not, there is no try."


 |  IP: Logged

Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-29-2000 11:24 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Was The Patriot shot in Super 35? That would explain extra graininess and contrast problems.

 |  IP: Logged

Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-29-2000 11:50 AM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that is was. I thought that could be the issue also. But why then isn't the whole film grainy? Do they ever shoot only part of a film in Super 35? That would explain why some scenes are grainy and other aren't.

------------------
Dave Cutler

"Do or do not, there is no try."

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-29-2000 03:44 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The Green Mile was flat.
The Patriot was scope.

I do believe the Patriot was shot in Super35. As lighting is increased, the cinematographer no doubt used a finer grain film (which requires more light). But for night scenes and the like, a faster negative stock would've had to be used to properly expose the image. Was the graininess scenes during non-bright outdoor points?

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-29-2000 04:19 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The last Mel film I worked on..."Payback" was Super 35 as well. Looks great in dailies unless the grain is/was meant to be there for effect. If it was not then something went awry at the lab after the initial shooting happened.
Mark


 |  IP: Logged

Brett Rankin
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Sierra Madre, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-30-2000 01:27 AM      Profile for Brett Rankin   Email Brett Rankin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Patriot looked like Super35 (You can tell it was shot spherical when focus changes in the same shot- with anamorphic, the horizontal seems to change focus differently than the vertical with spherical the focus changes equally in each direction). But I could have sworn that Green Mile was scope...

I saw this on a 65 foot (inadequately lit) screen, and I really didn't notice the grain. What I did notice was a LOT of lab errors. There were 4 lab splices, and right before 2 of them the picture turned dark purple. There was another little thing that I'm not sure about... 3 times, light, almost white bands appeared across the entire screen horizontally. They would roll like the V-hold on an old TV and then go away. I've never seen that before.

 |  IP: Logged

John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-30-2000 03:08 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brett wrote...>>But I could have sworn that Green Mile was scope...<<<

Nope, Brad's right...The Green Mile was definately flat.

"Sometimes the Green Mile seems awfully long..." You got that right! My ass is still numb!


 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-30-2000 07:34 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brett:
The "dark purple" areas near the lab splices were probably from excessive exposure of the undeveloped film to the "safelight" used to illuminate the splicing area at the lab. There may have been a problem that caused the lab technician to take longer than normal to make the ultrasonic splice. The horizontal white bands may be due to some flicker in the printer light output --- contact printers move the printing negative and raw stock print film past a narrow aperture, and a flicker in the light output would cause a horizontal light band. Excessive safelight fogging and obvious printer problems are valid reasons to request a replacement reel.

Brad:
You are correct. Graininess is very dependent on the choice of camera format ("flat", Super-35, or anamorphic), film speed, and film exposure. In general, the larger the image area on the negative, the lower the graininess. A slower film like KODAK VISION 200T Color Negative Film (5274) is less grainy than a high speed film like KODAK VISION 800T Color Negative Film (5289). Underexposure tends to produce more graininess and more "smoky" shadows. Film type, exposure and even camera negative format can vary scene-to-scene in a feature, often depending upon the "look" desired for a particular scene. (Recall that for "Little Buddha", Storaro actually intercut scenes shot in 65 mm with scenes shot in 35 mm to achieve a sharper, grain-free look for the Buddha scenes).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


 |  IP: Logged

Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-30-2000 10:52 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film type, exposure and even camera negative format can vary scene-to-scene in a feature, often depending upon the "look" desired for a particular scene.

Yes... but... as I understand it, the D.P. will usually choose one stock for interiors and one stock for exteriors. And they generally like to shoot everything at the same (or close to the same) f-stop setting. The goal is always to intergrate the different stocks without letting the audience notice a difference. Film formats change often in films with visual effects and they always work hard to keep you from seeing a difference (which would then tell your mind that you're watching an effect and not something "real"). Exceptions would be films like Little Buddha or Brainstorm where they wanted two distinct looks in each film. But they still wanted consistency within each "look."

There appears to be evidence of sloppy lab work with The Patriot. But how many of those thousands of prints are bad? Were they in a mad rush to make the prints at the last minute? Hmmmm.


 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-30-2000 02:46 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
The DP's that I have worked with rarely shoot at the same f stop throught a feature, or even a commercial for that matter. Occasionally they shoot the same scene at a few different stops if its som,ething critical. This assures them that at least one scene would perfectly match in. What they do to get scenes to match up is to choose, sometimes with the director,a maximum highlight level and then stick to the same maximum highlight level throught a film. This will give the same impression of using the same f-stop. Thats part of the reason for the funny little dark glass they look through. When shooting a documentary using the same f-stop could be done as long as light conditions prevail. But that is rarely. You would also not have any control over depth of field if you shot that way.
Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-30-2000 04:17 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps I've misunderstood how cinematographers work in general, but in publications like American Cinematographer I keep reading things like...

"The large softbox was used to get an ambient source that would produce enough light for Kimball to work at his preferred stop of T8/5.6." (From the article about Mission: Impossible 2.)

or

"I was shooting the night exteriors at about a T-2.8/3.2 on the C-series and at more of a T-5.6/8 for day exteriors." (From the article about Gone in 60 Seconds.)

or

"Thorin used Kodak's 500T Vision 5279 stock for night exteriors and most interiors, and Kodak's 250D Vision 5246 for daylight exteriors?" (From the article about Shaft.)

And that's all from just one issue! But now you guys have me extremely curious to read what they'll print about The Patriot.

Oh, wait! Here's an even better quote from the article about The Perfect Storm...

"Seale and Peterson also elected to shoot the film in the anamorphic format, which created its own set of considerations. The anamorphic zooms would be considerably slower than spherical zooms or primes, and there was also significant concern regarding focus because the entire film would be photographed primarily wide open at a T4.5. 'I opted to shoot anamorphic rather than Super 35 because I felt the quality improvement was a significant advantage for the film,' Seale asserts. 'It made things a bit more difficult, however, because I had to light everything up. I just said to the guys in preproduction, "Your stop is a T4.5. Lock it off!" The 8-perf VistaVision cameras from ILM were all T4.5 as well, so the whole film was planned for that stop.'"


 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-30-2000 05:33 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
American Cinematographer is a good publication that I would recommend quite highly.

Kodak publishes a nice catalog of their 16/35/65mm camera stocks with descriptions and technical information. This can be interesting reading for anyone who's familiar with conventional still photography and film stocks. I believe that it's called "Kodak Motion Picture and Television Imaging Camera Film Catalog" or something like that. Anyway, you can call up Kodak and get one. I'm sure that Fuji has something similar, though I have no experience with Fuji's MP camera stocks (I'm a fan of Kodak's 7293 as a great-looking all-purpose 16mm stock.)

For those who aren't familiar with it, I'll also mention the CML mailing list, on which many professional DPs participate. It seems like most of its contributors shoot TV commercials for a living, but there are a number of well-known feature DPs who are on the list as well.


 |  IP: Logged

Francis Casey
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: Saint John, NB, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-30-2000 09:49 PM      Profile for Francis Casey   Email Francis Casey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi All
Lastnight I watched Patriot on a screen in our 17plex .About 1/2 hour into the movie i noticed what i thought was a misframe .Upon checking with the projectionist he informed me that that they were getting a new reel because it had some sort of problem where the actual frame line wandered on part of the reel (not sure which reel).I have only ever seen this once before some years ago .Perhaps John could explain what could cause this to happen at the lab .
Also i noticed that during the last 40 minutes or so the image contained lots of very small wandering white specs and very thin wavey white lines .

Francis

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.